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[請教] 有关四萬Hz的詸

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發表於 2017-6-4 18:36:12 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2017-6-4 19:13 編輯

這一行前面是通道,leg room 最闊,又方便大家聚在一起聊天,平常是留起來不賣票的。如果無贊助和無大人物來聽,也許表演前幾天會賣票吧,不然整行吉了也難看。
今天是恆基贊助,所以有李家誠和徐子淇,紅蝦但不見她的老公689, 有石禮謙,也有金刀梁智鴻。
又唔見579喎,不知有無請埋佢和林伯。
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 樓主| 發表於 2017-6-5 11:49:10 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 petermok387 於 2017-6-5 11:54 編輯
momei 發表於 2017-6-4 09:31
我聽今天下午埸,第二行中間,對正指揮背部。
可能我聽慣直接音,反而覺得多反射音不是太原味。這曲目的 ...


Momei兄,我對錄音時放咪的位置没有認識但我想知這些放咪的位置會不會影响我们在家中皇帝位的位置。即不同的放咪位置要求不同的皇帝位的位置來聽。
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發表於 2017-6-5 13:48:26 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 greenleo 於 2017-6-5 13:49 編輯
petermok387 發表於 2017-6-5 11:49
Momei兄,我對錄音時放咪的位置没有認識但我想知這些放咪的位置會不會影响我们在家中皇帝位的位置。即不 ...


Peter 兄:
我多嘴,先代Momei 兄答。在Multi-Mic 的情況,要混音師在Mixing 時reconstruct 當時的音場。即是影響相對細。

在從前4-track 的時代,只有少數的咪,錄出來就差不多as it is.  可以加effects,但是改變樂器之間的樂器相對困難。即是影響相對大。

澳門兄是大師兄,可以俾吓意見。可能小弟的知識已經out 了。
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發表於 2017-6-5 16:12:05 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2017-6-5 16:16 編輯
petermok387 發表於 2017-6-5 11:49
Momei兄,我對錄音時放咪的位置没有認識但我想知這些放咪的位置會不會影响我们在家中皇帝位的位置。即不 ...


Hi Peter,
I am not in the trade and could only provide brief information on what I know.
Mastering as one of the engineers said might be likened to polishing. Say a carpenter (the recording engineer) has put together a table from wood, a raw one (recorded an album). The mastering engineer will listen through all the tracks several times and see how it could be improved (in the case of the raw table the "mastering" carpenter smooths the edges, polishes the surface, applies lacquer to make it shine etc). The audio mastering engineer will, depending on the format to be released, rearrange the track sequences to suit, raise the gain level of certain tracks if necessary, cut out unwanted sibilance of voices if any, the unwanted swishing sound of the fingers on violin and guitar necks, tapping of foot etc and also mix multi- tracks into two, balance the right and left channels. In the case of LP, the mastering engineer has to ensure basic gear of the consumer will be able to track the album without problem, for example, raises low frequencies and suppresses the high so that they are trackable when appearing in the same groove. Of course if there are errors of playing in the recordings, the mastering engineer has to cut and splice the same phrase from several recordings to eliminate the error. Some lousy performers have to sing several versions of the same phrase and a song may be made from dozens of versions.
As regards your question on microphones placement, if the mastering engineer foresees problems in tracking (LP) or in CD reproduction (for example, outside the limits of high or low being recorded), he would fix them when making the "master" file. In LPs wherever the bass actually is, it would be put in the centre (you won't hear a bass drum on the left or right). So how close the sound is to the "real" thing at the recording venue has much to do with the mastering engineer. In practice, the producer and the performing artists also have a say. The drummer or bass player may want his part to be more prominent than in the real performance and the producer may want the track to sound much louder and livelier.
The King seat. Normally a listener would NOT change the seat because strictly speaking that is the common one for most of the tracks. If his listening room is left and right unbalanced (one side is a wall but the other is an opening to some space or room) he would find a compromise for placing the speakers and listening seat until the right spots are found. If still unsatisfactory he would use left and right channel balance and equalisation (the Mark Levinson equaliser is famous for good results).
In practice, many LPs or CDs are not properly left and right balanced when played in my room. I used to mark every LP the channel balance and the absolute phase. For files now, do markings as well.
A concrete example: I have a testing pressing from Reference Recordings (a 6 inch 45 rpm track) that was sent by the pressing plant to RR for approval. RR marked on it -2db on one of the channels. So the mastering engineer has to balance the two channels again before getting the album for final production.
Incidentally, there were adverse comments on the gain level and phase of some of the tracks in the 2016 Hifi Show CD. The written explanations given by AudioTechnique were merely for the uninitiated.
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 樓主| 發表於 2017-6-5 18:16:18 | 顯示全部樓層
感谢两位師兄指教!
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發表於 2017-6-5 21:17:42 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2017-6-5 16:12
Hi Peter,
I am not in the trade and could only provide brief information on what I know.
Mastering ...

Momei 兄:
你的內文很有趣,小弟也搭單回覆,有失誤的請指正。

印象中混音會有兩個大情序:

1. 是mixing。重點是把同「一首歌」不同的sound tracks 混成一條兩聲道的sound track。例如一set 真鼓會有十條soundtrack,主音兩條track,其他每件樂器各一track 等等。最終把這數十條track 變成CD 的一條stereo track的Prototype。

理論上每一條Prototype 可以有一個獨立的mixing Engineer。其中一件常用的軟件是Protools。Mixing 即是“ raise the gain level of certain tracks if necessary, cut out unwanted sibilance of voices if any, the unwanted swishing sound of the fingers on violin and guitar necks, tapping of foot etc and also mix multi- tracks into two, balance the right and left channels.”

2. 把這些Prototypes 再交由一個mastering engineer 作mastering。由於這些Prototype tracks 是由不同的mixing engineer 所造,track 與track 之間的風格各異,聲浪的大小與動態都不同(假設這些mixing engineers 不是loudness war 的受害者),需要renormalize(這個字是我作的),免得聽者要時不時調校音量, 免得track 與track 之間有格格不入的感覺……。Mastering Engineer 主要做的是對整個CD(或是對Album)的修正。即是“The mastering engineer will listen through all the tracks several times and see how it could be improved ”

並不是每張碟都會用mastering engineer,因為成本很高。這是我對制作流行曲的認知,不知古典音樂是否也會有這兩個程序。

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發表於 2017-6-6 05:44:51 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2017-6-7 05:37 編輯

Hi Leo,
I see that you have a more refined differentiation between mixing engineer and mastering engineer.
Insofar as I know, very often the producer works with one processing house and the "mastering" engineer there handles the two roles you mentioned. For example, Andrew Walters of Abbey Road Studio, EMI (where Beatles recorded their albums). Andrew handles both classical and pop albums. He came to HK a year or two ago and I attended his seminar.
Classical album requirements are different from pop because the mastering engineer has to read and understand the score in order to spot anything wrong with the performance and select which part is performed better by the artist amongst different takes recorded for the album.
Other than Protools, iZotope has numerous softwares used by engineers for polishing recordings.
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發表於 2017-6-6 19:57:38 | 顯示全部樓層
Hi Momei,

I did not refine the differentiation --- I was told by my teacher.
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發表於 2017-6-10 10:51:18 | 顯示全部樓層
greenleo 發表於 2017-6-5 21:17
Momei 兄:
你的內文很有趣,小弟也搭單回覆,有失誤的請指正。

View of a veteran recording engineer in Europe:

Does recording classical music differ from other music genres?

There’s a huge difference between recording classical and pop music. In classical music you record an ensemble playing in an acoustic environment, eg a big church or a concert hall. Pop music is recorded in a studio. There are many occasions where musicians don’t even see each other for the whole duration of a given session. A drummer records on the first day, a bassist on the second, a guitarist records a week later. Finally, a singer comes when he has time. It is then dubbed on one tape, with an endless editing and overdubbing process afterwards. Classical music recording has a completely different approach. Interactions between musicians, as well as surrounding acoustic environments are so important. A hall, the public – and so much more – need to be taken into consideration when recording classical music.
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 樓主| 發表於 2017-6-10 11:57:04 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2017-6-10 10:51
View of a veteran recording engineer in Europe:

Does recording classical music differ from other ...

Hi Momei,

Do you mean that we need to rely on Recordings of Living Classical Music performed in Concert Hall as a Standard for Sound Stage as well as Timbre?
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發表於 2017-6-10 12:37:37 | 顯示全部樓層
petermok387 發表於 2017-6-10 11:57
Hi Momei,

Do you mean that we need to rely on Recordings of Living Classical Music performed in C ...

Hi Peter,
I would NOT categorically dismiss non classical music because many are well recorded and I use quite a number as reference. On the other hand some classical albums are badly recorded. Either category we need to choose carefully and wisely. Now with downloads I am able to listen first through my audio system before I buy, avoiding regret purchases. I particularly abhor the "cocoon" ambience and soundstage that I described in another post/thread.
On the whole, classical albums rarely use reverbs, add effects and amplification etc , are more representative of natural timbre of instruments and their interaction created by performers actually playing together.  
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 樓主| 發表於 2017-6-10 22:37:54 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2017-6-10 12:37
Hi Peter,
I would NOT categorically dismiss non classical music because many are well recorded and ...

Hi Momei,

My Question above is not clear. In fact, I like to know if we should use Recordings of Actual Concerts giving classical music in Concert Hall full of Audience as a standard to tune up our sound system, instead of using Recordings of Classical Music without Audience. I assume other recording techniques is good and equal.
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發表於 2017-6-12 10:25:27 | 顯示全部樓層
petermok387 發表於 2017-6-10 22:37
Hi Momei,

My Question above is not clear. In fact, I like to know if we should use Recordings of  ...

Hi Peter,
As few readers are interested, I will just be brief.
You question as I see it involves two parts, a) recording with presence a full audience OR recording without any audience, and b) use of such recording to assess and tune our audio system.
a) recording with or without audience in my view is basically preferences determined by the producer, artist and consumer. One fact is that recording with audience is invariably live recording and that is quite demanding on the performers and recording engineer. For example, if there are 3 performances, proper placement of microphones and performance of players provide only limited choices (for cutting and splicing) for ironing out mistakes etc. If need be, the engineer may even have resort to previous recordings in order to get a better phrase if none is available in the 3 live tracks. Some record labels invite a small number of attendees for even pop album recording in large studios because some artists perform better with the presence of an audience than merely recording into lifeless microphones.
I guess many audiophiles prefer studio recordings to live recordings, the former having cleaner sound with more details. That is why the majority of CDs available in the market and bought by audiophiles are non live recordings.
Personally I prefer live recordings and often I rip tracks from DVDs.
Smaller works, such as chamber and recitals, are usually recorded in rehearsal studios or churches because there is no need to hire a large concert hall for a couple of days which is very expensive and in any case the acoustics and environment of large auditorium are not right or intended by the composer.
b) for assessing audio performance and tuning our audio system.
* I think different genre of music and recording techniques/ venues are required in order to arrive at a more comprehensive judgement. My own view is that there are three most demanding features to be properly reproduced by an audio system: 1) large chorus comprised in a symphony performed in a concert hall, for example, Beethoven 9, Carmina Burana, Mahler 8 etc., no strain, no compression/distortion and adequate head count; 2) the same with a soprano singing loud in high register 3) 3D layers of players in the orchestra,  for example, Carmina Burana, 7 rows, namely 1 for the three singers, 3 for string players, 2 for wind and the 7th for percussion. I have mentioned these in other posts and would not repeat them here.
*Other than orchestral rendition, the audio system has to reproduce small works just as well. High frequencies and compact imaging of a drum set are useful for assessment. The set should be reproduced similar in size to the real one placed inside the listening room in 3D. The ride and crash cymbals in front at centre, the snare and high hat behind and additional crash cymbal if any, further back. (I have come across a high end system with the cymbal spread diagonally some 16 ft from the speaker to the corner of the room—design fault in using the diamond tweeter)
* Then solo voice in 3D at or near the plane of the speakers with mouth not larger than a grape fruit. (I have come across the mouth of singer almost as large as a basket/washing basin).
Many recordings in Hong Kong even studio ones add echo to the voice in order for it to sound smoother.
Pop concerts in Hong Kong add a lot of echo.
*violin and acoustic guitar, real life size in 3D.
Timbre is difficult for the listener unless he is well versed with the sound of the instrument. I have tracks of different makes of guitars all with different sound, and even the same guitar sounds different with a different pack of strings, for example, folk, country, bluegrass.
*bass and other stuff— leave for another time then
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