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樓主: momei

[分享] Combat between CAS, LP and CD

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發表於 2016-7-15 12:50:15 | 顯示全部樓層
diamondblack 發表於 2016-7-15 12:46
a consortium of local and viennese musicians.


WOW! It surely is a spectacle.
Thanks for sharing.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-7-15 12:59:37 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-7-15 13:21 編輯

Correction: The venue is City Hall not Cultural Centre.

I have not been able to reproduce this piece properly with my audio system. I have the Decca LP set (Solti/Chicago) and a DVD (Bernstein/Vienna)
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發表於 2016-7-15 14:19:57 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-7-15 12:59
Correction: The venue is City Hall not Cultural Centre.

I have not been able to reproduce this piec ...

Do you have Klaus Tennstedt's account with the LPO, LPO Chorus, etc. on EMI?
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-7-15 14:43:06 | 顯示全部樓層
新漢陳Sir 發表於 2016-7-15 14:19
Do you have Klaus Tennstedt's account with the LPO, LPO Chorus, etc. on EMI?

Chan sir,
I do not have the Klaus that you mentioned. I bought the Solti based on the Penguin rosette rating.
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發表於 2016-7-15 16:46:48 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-7-15 14:43
Chan sir,
I do not have the Klaus that you mentioned. I bought the Solti based on the Penguin rose ...

The Klaus Tennstedt version is worth acquiring.
Mahler's recorded works in my collection are as follows:
No.1 - Inbal / Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra (Denon); Bernstein / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam (DGG)
No. 2 - Klemperer / Philharmonia Orchestra & Chorus, Rattle / City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra & Chorus  (EMI)
No. 3 - Horenstein / London Symphony Orchestra & Chorus (Unicorn); Abbado / Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra & Wiener Singverein? (DGG)
No. 4 - Klemperer / Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI); Maazel / VPO (CBS/Sony); Bernstein / RCOA (DGG)
No.5 - Bernstein / VPO (DGG); Barbirolli / New Philharmonia Orchestra
No. 7, 9, 10 - Bernstein / New York Philharmonic Orchestra (CBS/Sony)
No. 8 - Tennstedt / LPO & Chorus, etc. (EMI)
No. 9 - Barbirolli / Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI); Karajan / VPO recorded live (DGG)
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-7-15 18:01:12 | 顯示全部樓層
Wow! You have an admirable collection.
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發表於 2016-7-15 18:08:24 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-7-15 18:01
Wow! You have an admirable collection.

These versions are simply the best recorded performances or best performed recordings ever available.

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-6 13:21:24 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-8-6 16:57 編輯

2016 Hi Fi Show in Convention Centre
* This year the queueing time has been improved to half an hour. I arrived at 11:15 and got in at 11:45. The several salons that were taken up by the former distributor of Goldmund products had been released and only Salon 1 was occupied by a seller of jewels. In other words, in terms of space the Show is smaller than previous two years.
* I was there for about 6 hours, writing notes on very track as I listened—my personal habit. Roughly 2 hours were spent in the Avant Garde room, 2 in the Tidal room, 1 1/4 dashing in and out of various rooms after a song or two of bad sound plus browsing  booths and 3/4 for having lunch and talking to 明哥 in the Goldmund room. There were many highly praised products that I found their sound disappointing. Perhaps my listening and sonic preferences are at odds with those of many commercial reviewers and audiophiles. I won’t list out the bad sounding ones here, not to step on their feet. Anyway, two distributors use Dave Brubeck Quartet’s Time Out LP album to play the Take 5 track and I would go into each one.
a. The YG Acoustic speakers. Joe Morello’s drum was at the back behind the left speaker. Paul Desmond’s alto sax was in front near the right speaker. Dave Brubeck’s piano was close to the right speaker. No centre fill at all. The snare drum sound was quite good but kick drum had no impact. Not worthwhile to stay longer or find out what amps and turntable were used.
b. Tidal 4-piece speakers driven by Tidal mono amps. Mr Tam played the Take 5 track twice during my stay. Paul Desmond’s alto sax was in the centre (opposed to the YG case where he was close to the right). Joe Morello’s drums was at the back of the left speaker whilst Dave Brubeck’s piano was close the the right speakers as in the case of YG. But the sound of the Tidal rendition was much more vivid and life like, so much so that moved me to quietly sing along and count my five fingers to the beat. This composition has 5 beats in one bar (that’s why called Time Out) and is a nightmare to drummers who are accustomed to 4 beats, going on naturally and automatically in the standard rhythm. When he plays solo, he has to listen carefully to the piano and double bass (or rhythm guitar as the case may be) in order to avoid going off beat. Some Hong Kong musicians when they practise this piece, count the beats with 5 fingers in one hand and dispense with the usual right and left foot tapping.
JUST WONDER IF MEMBERS HERE LIKE TO READ MORE ABOUT THE SOUND OF THE TIDAL (D1) AS WELL AS ZELLATION STATEMENT SPEAKERS
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發表於 2016-8-6 13:55:41 | 顯示全部樓層
I was there yesterday, didnt went to the s2 rooms first,
When i was there there are too many pple in rooms.

Probably go there tomorrow agian  (bye bye 80  bucks) to listen the zellation. I wish dynaudio could demo their prestige again . The current set up in show room shows us nothing, why everything touched by the chinese became rubbish.

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-6 15:34:24 | 顯示全部樓層
witon 發表於 2016-8-6 13:55
I was there yesterday, didnt went to the s2 rooms first,
When i was there there are too many pple in ...

""The current set up in show room shows us nothing, why everything touched by the chinese became rubbish.""
Well, I won't go as far as that. For example, in previous years I experienced excellent sound in shows from the Avant Garde Trio speakers with bass horns, the Rockport Arakis, the Goldmund 50th Anniversary and also an affordable system from 摩機鄺。
Chinese hands: Hifi Man ear/headphones designed and made in PRC are selling well worldwide for their quality, not price.
The Quad electrostatic speakers taken over from Peter Walker, UK. Recently Absolute Sound gave the newly refined speakers the thumbs up. We need time to see how Japanese Stax headphones fare under new PRC owners.
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發表於 2016-8-7 09:45:56 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-6 13:21
2016 Hi Fi Show in Convention Centre
* This year the queueing time has been improved to half an hou ...

The Tidal set is not on par with its performance in its showroom. If you Momei CHing enjoys it, you should visit the showroom. My experience is that you can get that performance if not better with the  Agoria in the showroom already
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-7 11:23:44 | 顯示全部樓層
tst123 發表於 2016-8-7 09:45
The Tidal set is not on par with its performance in its showroom. If you Momei CHing enjoys it, yo ...

tst123 C-hing,
Thank you for your advice. Will see if one day I can get a chance to tag along a "spender" for a visit to the showroom.
Actually I have 3 comments to make about the sound there, and also on the two sets of gear in the Avant Garde room. If readers are interested I will set them out.
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發表於 2016-8-7 13:30:54 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-7 11:23
tst123 C-hing,
Thank you for your advice. Will see if one day I can get a chance to tag along a "s ...

Look forward to your comments and comparison. As a Tidal owner, I may be more inclined to give Tidal more favourable comments.
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發表於 2016-8-7 14:05:40 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 eds60 於 2016-8-7 14:34 編輯
momei 發表於 2016-8-6 13:21
2016 Hi Fi Show in Convention Centre
* This year the queueing time has been improved to half an hou ...


我在家聽到的位置不一樣。我的是97年再版CD。可能不同版有不同位置。

鼓在左邊喇叭位置
鋼琴在右邊喇叭位置
Double bass 在右邊喇叭的後面
Alto saxphone 在右邊喇叭內側的後面, 在正中間和右喇叭的中間後面。
正中間沒有東西
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發表於 2016-8-7 14:18:44 | 顯示全部樓層
tst123 發表於 2016-8-7 09:45
The Tidal set is not on par with its performance in its showroom. If you Momei CHing enjoys it, yo ...

Showroom 比展覽會場好是應該的。電和房間的牆身結構肯定是 showroom 造得更好。
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發表於 2016-8-7 14:25:24 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-6 13:21
2016 Hi Fi Show in Convention Centre
* This year the queueing time has been improved to half an hou ...

請 momei兄分享。

我以前去温哥華 HiFi 店辦的 show, 都是請每個品牌派代表來 set 機和主持房間。 我都唔明點解開到咁大聲做乜,他們唔覺得吵耳的。
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發表於 2016-8-7 18:01:09 | 顯示全部樓層
eds60 發表於 2016-8-7 14:05
我在家聽到的位置不一樣。我的是97年再版CD。可能不同版有不同位置。

鼓在左邊喇叭位置

小弟隻都係97 再版, 聽到 saxophone 係中間
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-7 18:39:36 | 顯示全部樓層
eds60 發表於 2016-8-7 14:05
我在家聽到的位置不一樣。我的是97年再版CD。可能不同版有不同位置。

鼓在左邊喇叭位置

Please see Part 2 A below
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-7 18:40:07 | 顯示全部樓層
2016 Hi Fi Show
Part 2 A.
eds 60’s post about Take 5.
I listened to the track in my computer yesterday and again today. It was originally a 16/44.1 and as with many of my tracks, I did not put down data as to where I got or ripped it, and also kept no album covers to save SSD space. As eds60 rightly says, there are many versions in the market. I have a LP of this quartet with two tracks of Take 5; the second one with someone singing lyrics fitted to the tune usually played by Paul Desmond with alto sax.
Based on common jazz and pop band players’ positioning, as well as what I hear from the track that I have, I am afraid eds60 has some finding out to do. Paul Desmond should be in the centre, standing upfront (more on that later). He is the soloist in this track and as such, that is where he should be standing and playing. By the way he composed this song based on the mastery skill of Joe Morello of 5 beats in a bar. eds60 may wish to request playing this song in his future visits and see which track has Paul Desmond in the centre. Get a copy and play it in his own system. If Paul Desmond is again shifted to the right hand side, he has to fix up his system’s imaging and players’ positioning.
In my system, I have the drum on the left at the back whilst the cymbals are louder than those rendered in the two rooms I mentioned; and in fact even much too light to my liking if it were live. Kick drum is almost missing unless it is focussed on specially. I suspect two microphones were placed in front at the recording, resulting in the drum at a distance being too soft even during the solo passages.
I also have Dave Brubeck on the piano near the right speaker, at a plane slightly behind Paul Desmond.
The double bass. It is louder and more conspicuous than I heard in the two rooms and is positioned behind the alto saxophone in the centre. This may not be correct. I would be happier if he is slightly to the right and further back, the correct position when playing live.
Digressing a bit. Another “time out” track I like is “Money” in Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon album. Not until Roger Waters pointed it out in the video, had I noticed it was 7 7/8. Also very nice riff by the bass guitar (riff is for pop and rock; classics is ostinato). In the video, David Gilmore sings part of this song whilst playing acoustic guitar accompaniment. I prefer this close and forward sound to that in the original LP.
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發表於 2016-8-8 03:37:45 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 eds60 於 2016-8-8 07:32 編輯
momei 發表於 2016-8-7 18:40
2016 Hi Fi Show
Part 2 A.
eds 60’s post about Take 5.


現場演出, alto sax 是在最右邊。

唱片內的照片沒有清楚交待各樂器的排位。

我的房間全部反射點都經過處理。 房間是純玩 HiFi 用, 沒有阻礙音場的電視在前牆。左右牆是對稱的,除了右後角有房門。不是一邊貼場、一邊離場的廳。樂器的位置和分隔度,我相信已可反映錄音內的位置出來。樂器的定位 pinpoint ,我暫時未聽過比我做得更準的系統。

我認為 saxophone 通常在中間偏右位置。 例如藍雨褸和一些有人聲和 saxophone 的錄音。 人聲會在正中,saxophone 會在較右。 我聽過有些系統播 Take 5 saxophone 在較中位置。 聽有人聲和 saxophone 的錄音時,人聲和 saxophone 會重叠在一起。







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