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[分享] Combat between CAS, LP and CD

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發表於 2016-8-8 03:37:45 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 eds60 於 2016-8-8 07:32 編輯
momei 發表於 2016-8-7 18:40
2016 Hi Fi Show
Part 2 A.
eds 60’s post about Take 5.


現場演出, alto sax 是在最右邊。

唱片內的照片沒有清楚交待各樂器的排位。

我的房間全部反射點都經過處理。 房間是純玩 HiFi 用, 沒有阻礙音場的電視在前牆。左右牆是對稱的,除了右後角有房門。不是一邊貼場、一邊離場的廳。樂器的位置和分隔度,我相信已可反映錄音內的位置出來。樂器的定位 pinpoint ,我暫時未聽過比我做得更準的系統。

我認為 saxophone 通常在中間偏右位置。 例如藍雨褸和一些有人聲和 saxophone 的錄音。 人聲會在正中,saxophone 會在較右。 我聽過有些系統播 Take 5 saxophone 在較中位置。 聽有人聲和 saxophone 的錄音時,人聲和 saxophone 會重叠在一起。







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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-8 08:14:11 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-8-8 08:17 編輯

eds is right and I was wrong in regard to the positioning of Paul Desmond as revealed by the live videos he posted. Dave Brubeck, being the leader is always in or near the centre. I also mistakenly thought his piano in performances is an upright but in fact the videos show he always uses a grand.
Duke Ellington Band in concert (the current setup, without Duke himself). The solo player walks up to the front centre of the stage to perform his passages and returns to his seat at the back after finishing. Another solo player walks up and returns in same manner. So I always assume the solo instrumentalist, like a singer, should be in centre front and would adjust the left/right balance of my system to fill up any hole in the centre if a recording has that void.
I note the video sound tracks were recorded with multi microphones and presume many tracks in the market were made in the same manner. The mastering/mixing engineer would have positioned the players in his preferred way; in other words, the lesson is no standard or yardstick positioning for Take 5 track.
In one of the videos, Dave Brubeck tapped his right foot vigorously. Will download and find out if that was picked up in the recording. Will download the others as well and see if any of these live recording sounds better than my CD track.   
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發表於 2016-8-8 13:13:08 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 eds60 於 2016-8-8 13:15 編輯
momei 發表於 2016-8-8 08:14
eds is right and I was wrong in regard to the positioning of Paul Desmond as revealed by the live vi ...


其中一張相來自CD,另一張網上找到。

鋼琴縮在一邊,好似 upright。 我估鋼琴是直放,不同於古典音樂打橫放。

Time Out 是 1959年錄音,是早期 stereo 。 Time Out 有 mono 和 Stereo LP。早期 stereo 好大可能會出現音場中間有缺口。

睇相其實都唔係好清楚排位,再加上 remastering 時可能將樂器移位。
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-8 13:46:19 | 顯示全部樓層
The first photo you uploaded shows a typical studio recording.
Also muti microphones were used and Paul Desmond was in the centre. There was a board to screen off the double bass so as to avoid its sound coming out to the main recording area. Dave Brubeck’s piano was also pushed away for the same purpose, but had its sound board raised fully up. Upright pianos do not have raisable sound boards.
I have downloaded 5 tracks from the YouTube link you provided, including the 1959 Time Out version. The LP used in the YG and Tidal rooms had this same art cover and were apparently re-issues because they looked new.
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發表於 2016-8-8 13:46:28 | 顯示全部樓層
eds60 發表於 2016-8-8 13:13
其中一張相來自CD,另一張網上找到。

鋼琴縮在一邊,好似 upright。 我估鋼琴是直放,不同於古典音樂打 ...

兩位師兄都比小弟好耳,我聽野其實好求其,順耳就算,不過今次好奇先撘下咀。

今早再聽 Take 5,分別用 Tidal 西庄及Pioneer 喇叭為主的系統聽,覺得支 Saxophone 都係中間,有時甚至乎偏左小小,但直覺兩位都不會對這曲目不認識或出錯,再試聽隻 audio compass 睇自己套系統有冇問題

跟住再唔服氣在電腦用耳筒聽

在 original video 聽,支Saxophone 係偏右,但在 Tidal streaming 支 Saxophone 又走向中。

兩位師兄大可做類似比較。我過幾天又可以上代理再聽返 Take 5 便知
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-8 15:40:15 | 顯示全部樓層
tst123 發表於 2016-8-8 13:46
兩位師兄都比小弟好耳,我聽野其實好求其,順耳就算,不過今次好奇先撘下咀。

今早再聽 Take 5,分別用  ...

As I said, I had downloaded 5 versions from Youtube.
The worst is the "long version". This had the saxophone to the right but also spilled some sound over to the left. the second worst is described as merely described as "take five" in YouTube. The whole quartet is bunched up to the centre, single channel mono sound.
The other 3 have the saxophone in centre. Indeed in one or two downloaded versions, cymbals of the drum set and the double bass seem to sound louder than my CD track. Will compare later.
For some years already, when I listen to systems I filter out the correct sound features and spot quickly the issues. No good to have adopted the old working habit of management by exception, focusing on and solving issues and letting go the passable items.
If you read my posts mentioning criticisms about certain products, they are what I think areas for improvement and in fact the products may have numerous virtues that I agree and rank them above many others.
This is quite the opposite of commercial reviews in which no product has any problem to be mentioned, be the product be cheap or expensive, only that the latter has a longer virtues list.

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-8 16:30:10 | 顯示全部樓層
TST 123 c-hing re: ""我過幾天又可以上代理再聽返 Take 5 便知""

The Tidal setup has Paul Desmond in the centre; only YG Acoustics has the large hole in centre.
Let me get round to write up the issues I heard in the Tidal room and I would be interested to know whether you hear the same issues in the showroom.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-9 17:02:39 | 顯示全部樓層
Part 2B
I have been pondering how to write this intermediate report so that I would not be construed 夜郎自大. To begin with, let me make two things clear. The first one is that the sound of my system is definitely less refined and less articulate than the Tidal setup, the Zellation Statement as well that I may also report on if there is interest. Amongst other issues, my system has discernible upper bass distortion in certain recordings. 2. The Tidal setup is of of the few excellent sounding systems that I have heard. In keeping with this, what I am saying below are minor areas that I think the Tidal system may be improved; the shortcomings that I  happened to hear at the particular session (what the system COULD sound because others have achieved them) and what it SHOULD sound if live performance is used as reference. Therefore what I write should be read in the context that the system is 瑕不掩瑜 and the sonic issues may well be 有則改之,無則加勉。
Here we go, my listening session at the Tidal/Entreq room:
The flimsy partitions of the room no doubt adversely affected the sound. Bad electricity, a factor that many show exhibitors blame might not be at play in this room. It was because the equipment area was lumped with numerous large and small Entreq boxes. These provided clean power, one may assume.
I sat in the room for a while prior to Lee 388 of Audiotechnique coming in to give a demo and I also stayed for some time after he had left. My seat was front row centre, about 8 ft from the speakers.
According to Mr Tam, the person in charge there, the diamond tweeter is good for 2k Hz to 70k Hz. Hence the crossover may be set at a low frequency, entailing smooth and linear sound reproduction by the same driver for a large part of the midrange all the way up to extreme highs. The crossover is external (as a separate box outside the speakers) and user adjustable. The demos were conducted with both CD and LP sources, switching between them from time to time. The turntable, with straight line tracking arm included, is Bergmann from Denmark. Cartridge is Van Den Hul. Pre-amp is Tidal and the two tower speakers on each side are driven together by a mono amp, also Tidal. The CD transport (I don’t know which brand) puts out digital signals to a DAC called Diamond Lab. The bass tower, according to Tam, has two 11” cone drivers and they work from 16 to 60 Hz. The speaker system is called Sunray T1.
Taking a easy approach, I would transcribe briefly the notes I took at the session, add comments in brackets where necessary and summarising a few points towards the end.
At the session I merely sat and listened; did not make any request to play particular albums or music genre.
* An orchestral work was playing from a CD when I sat down. I noticed strings sounded strained during loud passages. Soundstage width and spread of instruments across it was OK.
* the next track featured an electric guitar. Nothing to write about because I know in addition to tuning knobs and vibrator on the guitar body, the player may use six or seven different foot pedals to generate numerous effects. Much skill and innovation of the guitarist is called for, but using the sound as reference, no way.
* the third track was 八音和。 Tam used a CD that I did not know about. The sound was recessed and dull but it was good that all 8 instruments were properly located within the soundstage being delineated within the inner edges of the left and right speakers (meaning not projecting a giant percussionist as in the case of many large audio systems). The drums, cymbals and gongs sounded clean and sharp but too light, and the large drum did not have enough impact. (I often listen to the same piece recorded by Terence Lai and went specially to attend the concert of 錢國偉 in which the percussionist 彥倚苹 was invited from Taiwan to play this piece. I missed seeing her play it for one time. It was in the programme but changed to a group piece because she was pregnant. The song is demanding not only for audio systems but also dedicated audiophiles. Not easy for an audio system to reproduce it properly and for an audiophile to grasping the correct sound. Not easy to figure out what instruments are playing and how some of the sounds are produced. Without such knowledge, the track could not and should not be used as reference. I made many wrong guesses prior to actually seeing her play. A large Chinese floor drum was used and I started looking for it afterwards. I first came across one in China and asked 蘇師傅 to play a few strokes for me, who told me it was usually called 定音鼓。Later I found some Chinese bands when providing accompaniment in Hong Kong halls, they also used a similar one that was being lent or rented to them though on some occasions a western tympani was made available in its place).
* Another electric guitar track. Tam obviously liked electric guitars. The sound as a whole was properly forward (not recessed) and notes of the electric bass might be discernibly  followed. But to me the whole rendition sounded artificial.
* Tam then switched the source to LP, playing Take 5. I already described it in previous posts and am not repeating it here.
* He switched back to CD and played a Canton pop song by a girl. Amateurish singing! As regards the sound, her voice was properly located in the centre but even with her soft singing her voice was bright and edgy. A saxophone provided fill in at times, also located in centre.
* LP again. (was it Le Cid?) The strings were strained when playing loud and even sounded a bit torn. The flute and winds were impressive. Centre fill and soundstage width were adequate.
* Then another LP with an instrument playing glissando at times; sounded like a harp to me. But image size was exceedingly large.
* This one plus two more LPs. Symphonic work (Firebird??). This time the bass impact was excellent. Strings were also strained when playing loud. But when soft, they were smooth and detailed.
* Japanese album of percussion (I have this one but forget the name). Centre fill was good. Brass close to right speaker. On the whole sounding properly forward. But highs had some ringing!
* A drum set. Snare drum in centre but the set was too widely spread. Kick drum was to the side (should be slightly off centre to the left speaker because drummer kicked it with right foot) (not too good a recording of a drum set).
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發表於 2016-8-10 21:31:55 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-8 16:30
TST 123 c-hing re: ""我過幾天又可以上代理再聽返 Take 5 便知""

The Tidal setup has Paul Desmond in t ...

Today I visited Tidal showroom to listen to Take 5 again.

Mr Tam was not there and the setup was not the Sunray T-1 as at the AV Show 2016 but with the Agoria speakers instead. The saxophone was at the centre but at times it was on my left which is similar to my home. The sound stage is much wider at the showroom as it is more than 3 times the size of my listening area.

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-11 06:07:15 | 顯示全部樓層
tst123 發表於 2016-8-10 21:31
Today I visited Tidal showroom to listen to Take 5 again.

Mr Tam was not there and the setup was  ...

tst123 c-hing,
You acted very quickly to listen to Take 5 in the showroom!
There are already many versions of Take 5 in YouTube and certainly there are many more in the market.
Because the LP used in the YG Acoustics and the Tidal rooms have a similar artwork cover (the 1959 one), I assume they are the same re-issues. So I attributed the hole in centre in the YG room to the setup, most probably the speakers and not to source differences. Because photos of all recording sessions show multiple microphones being used, the mixing engineer had the choice in where to place the 4 players. I would say a mixing engineer would not intentionally create a hole in centre in a track. Mixing consoles often have monitor speakers at close field so as to facilitate the engineer picking up faults. Soundstage, imaging and placement of players are not on the engineer’s list.
By the way, did you listen to other tracks in the showroom and find any of the sonic issues I mentioned in the post above?

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發表於 2016-8-11 09:42:25 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-11 06:07
tst123 c-hing,
You acted very quickly to listen to Take 5 in the showroom!
There are already many  ...


You are a knowledgeable audiophile and your command of English is very good.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-11 10:07:16 | 顯示全部樓層
新漢陳Sir 發表於 2016-8-11 09:42
You are a knowledgeable audiophile and your command of English is very good.

謝謝陳 sir.
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發表於 2016-8-11 10:49:28 | 顯示全部樓層

You may be aware that I am a habitue to live orchestral concerts, instrumental and vocal recitals, etc. Pleased feel free to share your experience in musical appreciation.
I can be reached at 9139 3754.  
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-11 12:54:03 | 顯示全部樓層
新漢陳Sir 發表於 2016-8-11 10:49
You may be aware that I am a habitue to live orchestral concerts, instrumental and vocal recitals, ...

Many thanks 陳 sir.
With touch base with you first by WhatsApp.
Regards
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發表於 2016-8-11 12:57:22 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-11 12:54
Many thanks 陳 sir.
With touch base with you first by WhatsApp.
Regards

THX.

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發表於 2016-8-11 13:28:28 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 eds60 於 2016-8-11 13:53 編輯
momei 發表於 2016-8-8 15:40
As I said, I had downloaded 5 versions from Youtube.
The worst is the "long version". This had the ...


多謝 momei兄的詳細分享。

在上面的 post 我已講過, 如果聽 Take 5 saxophone 在中間。 聽有人聲和 saxophone 錄音時,兩者會重叠。 像你描述 Canton pop 女聲和saxophone 都在中間。

樂器定位並不是只有左、中、右。 中和左和中和右之間都有的。
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發表於 2016-8-11 14:17:36 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-11 06:07
tst123 c-hing,
You acted very quickly to listen to Take 5 in the showroom!
There are already many  ...

I only listen to the Take 5 in the showroom.

As Mr Tam was not present, I have to listen to the track with my own CD. I did not listen to other tracks you mentioned.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-11 18:48:26 | 顯示全部樓層
eds60 發表於 2016-8-11 13:28
多謝 momei兄的詳細分享。

在上面的 post 我已講過, 如果聽 Take 5 saxophone 在中間。 聽有人聲和 sax ...

你說的對:
""中和左和中和右之間都有的""
甚至半左半前,半左靠後都有,右邊也一樣,不過録音和音響都要頂級。
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-11 18:50:05 | 顯示全部樓層
tst123 發表於 2016-8-11 14:17
I only listen to the Take 5 in the showroom.

As Mr Tam was not present, I have to listen to the t ...

Oh I see. Thanks
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發表於 2016-8-12 01:15:11 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-11 18:48
你說的對:
""中和左和中和右之間都有的""
甚至半左半前,半左靠後都有,右邊也一樣,不過録音和音響都要 ...

錄音重要。 要發揮這方面,房間遠比器材重要。
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