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[分享] Combat between CAS, LP and CD

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-12 13:45:50 | 顯示全部樓層
兩位都說的對。我對房間的影響缺乏認識,也常將它忽略。
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-12 13:48:17 | 顯示全部樓層
LEE 388 OF AUDIOYECHNIQUE CAME IN TO GIVE DEMO IN TIDAL ROOM
@ CD track of Halie Loren, a live recording and the track played was Fly Me to the Moon. A piano began the introduction but the sound was not that smooth. In my view this was a bad recording in that the piano, voice, drum and electric bass all bunched up in one row from front to back in the centre (like single channel mono sound).
@ a UPMCD of Beyond, track played was 海濶天空。The high notes were beyond 家駒 voice’s upper range; also his voice sounded too nasal. In passages when the voice and band played loud, the sound was stressed, compressed and distorted. Appeal to fans but not a good recording for showing audio properties.
THEN SWITCHED TO LP
@ Lee was a responsible person in that he came to the room in the morning to test run the gear. He and Tam found the bass inadequate and raised the crossover point to get more low end response (more on this later when talking about the Carol Kidd track).
@Wilson Audio, pipe organ (Bach Toccata and Fugue track?) I found the upper midrange sounding stressed. Soundstage width and depth were good but not wall to wall and not filling the ambience in front of the speakers with sound. (Playing 2L-077, Organ and Harmonica via the Avant Garde Trio+bass horn, the reproduced sound was wall to wall of 20 something feet in the showroom and had much more frontal extension than the Tidal).
Lee asked the audience about impression of the sound. Phenomenal, yes but I pointed out there was inadequate wall to wall and frontal extension, probably adversely affected by the flimsy partitions of the room. Lee said wrapping round sound was hifi because in live concert little frontal extension of the organ was noticeable.
(The occasion was unsuitable for debating. I thought Lee might probably had only heard pipe organ in Cultural Centre where it was installed above the back of the stage, some 40 ft away from the stage front. Couldn’t hear much reflection at a seat on the side or another 30 ft away (total perhaps 70 ft). But for making a recording where would the engineer place the microphones? Within 10 ft from the pipes I guess, and there the microphones would pick up reflections from the sides of the stage. If Lee had attended weddings or death masses with organ and choir in churches, he would have heard much more reflections, with sound filling up the space. I believe Wilson’s album was recorded in a church and not in a concert hall because the latter would be hard to schedule and very expensive for a small label like his).
* Shostakovich 10th Symphony, soundstage was wide (though not wall to wall) but the strings sounded like having a dense pool near the left and right speakers, akin to having two noticeable lumps of sound there. (dispersion problem of speaker? or disc cutting compromise?)
* LP called Extreme Sound mastered by Doug Sax prior to his death. The track Espanyol? was played. The guitar stuck to the right speaker whilst the violin was at the back on the left, sounding like out of phase. Some audiophiles might consider this good soundstage depth (hope it is not the producer using this gimmick intentionally to fool the uninitiated; an artificial means to create false depth). Even Doug Sax could not improve upon a bad recording like this.
* Berlin New Year Concert 97, TEST PRESSING/WHITE LABEL
track Hungarian Dance (Ventures played this tune with guitar but called it Red River Rock)
Regret to say the orchestral sound was strained, constricted (not open enough) and thin. Nonetheless, handclaps at the end sounded nice.
*Carol Kidd LP, a reissue of the album named Gold
I think the original was digitally recorded. The famous track When I Dream was played. Her voice was slightly diffused. The main guitar, playing chord arpeggio accompaniment was too large and boomy. The second guitar that played notes at times was well separated from Kidd and the main guitar. (I checked the ripped CD track after going home. Voice was much better focussed as was the main guitar. The boom and image diffusion in the Tidal setup was probably caused by raising the crossover point too high).
Prior to playing the disc, Lee 388 advised the audience that when listening to an acoustic guitar its notes should not waver from side to side. (He was right but I would add that the point source should be realistically small because the air hole of the guitar is only about 4 inches. The spruce top (kind of wood) helps resonating the whole guitar body (sides and back of good ones made of rosewood) but the main sound source comes from the air hole).
(To evaluate a speaker’s matching of drivers and integrity of crossovers, I use solo tracks of double bass all the way to cello, acoustic guitar, voice and violin. Solo without any accompaniment is to ensure image is in dead centre and not affected by accompanying instrument).
* LP of Sarasota pieces; track was Habanera?
A very good sounding LP, violin recital with piano accompaniment. Focused and good imaging. Violin sound is smooth and nice though slightly stressed and squeaky (利) when playing loud.
*tutti LP from Reference Recordings
I think the original was digital. The strings sounded compressed and unbalanced with the bass.
* Sade singing Smooth Operator
Her voice was smooth and focussed whilst being positioned at back of soundstage. But the highs of accompaniment stuck to the two speakers suggesting dispersion problem. Accompaniment of the singer should always be positioned behind him/her.
Observations and Summary
% LP source sounded better than CD in the room (though not direct combat with same track) but no information as to whether the DAC came with upward resampling function and whether it was activated. Upward resampling should alleviate the compression and artefacts inherent in 16/44.1
% There was recurrent bunching up of strings sound close to the left and right speakers. Need further tests to find out if that arose from: dispersion of speakers; cartridge/phono amp; bad acoustics of the room. I would be most interested in attending a session to hear whether the system will pass with flying colours or have its knees down when playing the last several minutes of Appian Way in Pines of Rome as well as the crescendo towards the end of Mahler’s Symphony 8 (Symphony of a Thousand).
Also a soprano and/or a tenor singing high and loud.
% dispersion issue as noted in the pipe organ track; there are 3 tracks to test the system’s performance. The audience applause at the end of the Matilda track in Bela Fonte in Carnegie Hall. Photos of the Hall show that there are 3 storeys of balcony seats on both sides but none at the back of the stage. In most systems, the audience applause is reproduced at the back of the soundstage. Don’t blame mixing if an audio system is short on this. Even a moderately priced system, the M2Tec Vaughan DAC into two active monitor speakers on 淘寶 stands were able to reproduce the applause along the two side walls of the defunct Aura showroom in Star House. The second one is the applause at the end Mahler 8th Symphony recorded live (conducted by Bernstein) in the Golden Hall, Vienna. The Hall is shoe box like, with two storeys of balcony seats on two sides and none at the back of the stage. The applause should come from two sides (and not from the back of the speakers) and some in between the listening seat and the speakers, more prominent in this recording than in the Matilda track. The number 3 track is 2L-090, Tchaikovsky’s Souvenir de Florence. The 22 member ensemble were placed sitting in a circle and Morton Lindberg recorded them with microphones set up in the centre of the circle facing different directions. An audio system that has imaging and dispersion excellence should be able to reproduce the ensemble in a circle, though about half of the members sitting with their backs facing the listener may sound subdued but still the circle should be discernible.
% Crossover point set too high resulting in boomy and bloated lower midrange. To over come this, I switch off both subwoofers of each channel when playing tracks of solo voice, violin, guitar etc.
% In regard to the aspect of accompaniments being placed in front of the singer, I guess there is dispersion constraints on the tweeter. Energy (sound) is propagated near field whist the midrange voice is propagated farther to the back. May test whether the guess is right or wrong by using a track recorded with 2 microphones: 八音和 by Terence Lai and drum set by Mario (microphones setup in ORTF manner). In these two tracks high frequencies of instruments are to be positioned at various points in the soundstage that should be confined within the inner edges of the two speakers. If they cluster near the speaker boxes,I am afraid cabinet design would have to be reworked. Many large speakers in boxes exhibit this problem whilst the Avant Garde Trio horns having an open design do not.
% test pressings; nowadays many test pressings of new or reissues are offered for purchase. These current vintage to me are merely means to get more money. One should understand the purpose of test pressings in the old days. They were submitted by the mastering studio to the producer/conductor/artist as DRAFTS for approval before mass production (too costly to correct mistakes after that). The producer/conductor might prefer different frequency balance (low to high), loudness, channel balance and tracking easiness to be adjusted. Therefore many so called testing pressings were work in progress rather than the final product. (I had one from the producer marking 2db down for 1 channel).
(too long for 1 post)

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發表於 2016-8-16 06:40:55 | 顯示全部樓層
tst123 發表於 2016-8-10 21:31
Today I visited Tidal showroom to listen to Take 5 again.

Mr Tam was not there and the setup was  ...

tst123兄, 如果聽現場演奏,我唔覺得有任何樂器定位。 聽 HiFi 就幾明顯有。

下次你去Tidal showroom, 試下藍雨褸或有人聲、saxophone 和幾件樂器的錄音。是否如我估計好大機會兩者會在中間重叠(或貼得很近)。
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-16 10:20:37 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-8-16 10:31 編輯
eds60 發表於 2016-8-16 06:40
tst123兄, 如果聽現場演奏,我唔覺得有任何樂器定位。 聽 HiFi 就幾明顯有。

下次你去Tidal showroom,  ...


eds60,
I am afraid bunching up of players in the centre means dispersion problem.
Let us use recording of a quartet with two microphones so that mixing does not come into play. The 4 players sit in inverted U shape in live. They should spread like that when reproduced by an audio system. I use recordings by Unipheye that unfortunately has folded up.
In muti microphone setups, the players and singers should also spread across in good recordings. Just a couple of examples.
Sheffield Thelma Houston album. We can hear horizontal and front to back spread of players. Also Eagles' Hotel California, the live recording. 3 guitarists plus singer spread across the soundstage. You like to mention saxophone + voice. House of Rising Sun in the Opus 3 CD (2013 HK HiFi show has included this track but have not played it to see if the sound has been fouled up or not). The saxophone is located to the outside of the left speaker whilst the singer is in centre. Too outside for my personal liking though good for hifi demo.

PS: hearing it live
If one sits to the side and far away, positioning of players may be blunted by hall reflections.
I attend singing concerts quite often, in halls, not the Coliseum pop concert extremely amplified PA type.
When I sit in the centre or near it, I am able to locate the singer and players through their direct sound even though they sing and play into microphones. Occasionally I purposely try to locate them with my eyes closed. Audience on the sides and back mostly get the indirect sound through amplifiers and may not be able to locate them as you say.

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-18 09:20:09 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-8-18 09:39 編輯

eds60,
I went to Ben Lau's showroom on Tuesday, spending some 2.5 hours there, basically listening to the new gear he recently represented.
Because it was a dedicated session for me, I chose the tracks and the portions for evaluating the gear, thus I was able to listen to more tracks and took more notes than in the Tidal room (and the Avant Garde room as well) in the HK HiFi show. As very few readers are interested in what I wrote or said, I merely posted a short note under a thread.
http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/ ... &extra=page%3D1
Take 5 was played. Paul Desmond was in the centre. The system had extremely good soundstage width and positioning of players within it. A revelation to me of this aspect in the Hotel California track. Glenn Frey's guitar was very clear beside Don Felder's on the right and that of Joe Walsh's on the left is very clear and distinct, whilst the ambience between different players was clean and silent! All three use acoustic guitars of different brands, and their individual sound characters may be clearly distinguished. Both Don and Joe used fingers to play, and once that was known (I got that from the DVD), I was able to differentiate the duller and blunter sound from that of a pick being used.

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-25 07:40:25 | 顯示全部樓層
Abbey Road Studio in UK is one of the top recording studios in the world.
Its Andrew Walter is coming to Hong Kong to give 2 talks in Oct, City Hall, $20 each ticket.
8 Oct Saturday morning, to talk about "the art of restoration" of analogue tapes.
9 Oct Sunday morning, to talk about "revival of vinyl".
Have bought tickets to attend both.
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發表於 2016-8-26 06:56:24 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-25 07:40
Abbey Road Studio in UK is one of the top recording studios in the world.
Its Andrew Walter is comin ...

Thanks for sharing.

Your articles are very inspiring.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-26 14:07:36 | 顯示全部樓層
jules 發表於 2016-8-26 06:56
Thanks for sharing.

Your articles are very inspiring.

Thank you Jules. Glad you bother to read what I write.
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發表於 2016-8-27 00:12:59 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-8-26 14:07
Thank you Jules. Glad you bother to read what I write.

Well I guess many readers in this forum prefer reading 開箱文filled with photos.  Your posts might be a bit wordy by comparison to digest : )

Don't be discourage by what I said though.  Keep it going.

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-28 15:33:05 | 顯示全部樓層
Doug Sax passed away and his famous mastering lab has closed with this notice:

“The Mastering Lab has closed.
For those clients and friends who had the pleasure of knowing and working with Doug Sax, the founder and owner of The Mastering Lab, we hope you will always remember the love, joy, and sound of the wonderful projects that passed through here.”

For those interested in having a glimpse at the top end facilities in this Lab,
go to:
http://themasteringlab.com/about/tml/
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-29 09:37:44 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-8-29 09:38 編輯

Mahler 8
In preparation for actually attending the concert last night in City Hall, I had been listening to this work for a while.
There I sat in 5th row, centre, directly facing the back of the conductor. The stage had to be expanded by removing the first two rows of seats in order to make room for players and choirs. Although called “symphony of a thousand”, the cast last night was only about 500.
City Hall had no pipe organ and an upright was used on stage. The concert master was from abroad whilst violin, viola principals of the HK Phil were there. 8 singers; 3 sopranos, 2 mezzos, 1 tenor, 1 baritone and 1 bass, sitting and standing at the edge of the stage. I could see 3 microphones being placed to record the female singers on the left and 3 to record the male ones on the right. And two to record the 200 odd choir members up there at the back of the stage. The overhead microphones were hung at their usual places, above the singers on both left and right, and two over C row. RTHK will broadcast the recording and also the video later on.
The concert opened with handfuls of bad sounding bars, inharmonious and saw teethed that led me to say how come. But after warming up, perhaps also the hall ambience required a bit of run in, the sound was marvellous till the end. The large pool of sound from the front edge and sides of the stage all the way to its back was overwhelming. I closed my eyes many times to test the soundstage. The pool of sound filled the ambience in front of me with an illusion that I could even touch it with my hand. Many or even most audio systems have the soundstage front located behind the speakers. Some systems half way between the speakers and some even further aback. Many audiophiles consider this good soundstage depth which in fact is distance to edge of soundstage only and not its depth. Depth should be measured from the “perceivable” first row of players to the last row. One of the sopranos sings off stage. In the Bernstein track that I use, she is up there near the pipe organ, but not clearly placed in that position in my audio system. Towards the end, 4 trumpets and 3 trombones are to be off stage as well. In the track that I use, they are up near the dome of the recording venue and I hear them in my system up near the ceiling at the back wall. In the concert last night, they were up in the balcony on my right, with their sound wrapping around me from there. In the Tidal speakers report, I commented on the sound stopping short at the plane of the speakers when the organ track was placed. It seems Lee388 may have to test visualise the soundstage next time when he attends concerts, Mahler 1 coming soon and Carmina Burana next year.
I noted a couple bringing two children of primary school age to the concert sitting in front of me. How lucky they were for being able to listen to this phenomenal work at this young age. I wonder how many audiophiles attended this concert for checking in what ways their million dollar systems fell short.

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發表於 2016-8-29 10:10:41 | 顯示全部樓層
There are other Hiendy members in the concert yesterday.
man.jpg

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 樓主| 發表於 2016-8-29 10:29:01 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-8-29 10:32 編輯
ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2016-8-29 10:10
There are other Hiendy members in the concert yesterday.


Good to know that.
In my view, the petit soprano Louise Kwong 鄺勵齡 sang better than the other 4 female singers. The tenor was also better than the baritone and bass.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-10-2 21:21:23 | 顯示全部樓層
Attended the concert by Lea Salonger, with accompaniment by the HK Phil.
Quite a rare occasion for me to go to a concert by pop and ballad singers backed by a large orchestra playing unplugged instruments. Local pop concerts in Hong Kong Coliseum have instruments amplified extremely loud and singers whispering into the microphones basically relying on amplification and backup voices.
Lea Salinger really sings well, deserving her international fame. Up and down the scale, high and low, loud and soft with no trace of shatter and strain and no notes out of tune. I do not think any local singer is able to do that in a live performance. Some not even in  patched up recordings.
She sang with a hand-held wireless microphone and when she walked across the stage, I was able to follow her moving image locations when I closed my eyes.
To many audiophiles, the orchestra sounded muddy with too much harmonics in between instruments, too forward ( I sat about 15 ft with the singer directly in front) and the background noise too high (not dark enough). Need to clean up the power supply, change the amps and cables to achieve the “desired” sound.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-10-9 15:29:36 | 顯示全部樓層
Two talks by Andrew Walter of Abbey Road Studio, UK:
The talks yesterday and today, each lasting 2 hours, are very informative. Andrew has worked 25 years for this Studio, a very open and joyful person, speaking from his experience and telling stories.
I took notes as usual though not intending to set them out here. Just one point.

I told him I suspected many of the specialist labels releasing re-mastered recordings of yesteryears,  did not have access to the master tapes. They only transfer tracks from LPs and CDs, “improving” them as claimed and resell. He confirmed that was the case and insofar as he knew, hardly any had obtained licence from the EMI group to which the Abbey Road Studios belonged.

So audiophiles beware. The re-issued LPs or CDs they buy from the market without citing the source and licence are most probably made from second or even third generation LPs and CDs bought from the market!! Chris Parker before his retirement had recorded many highly acclaimed LPs released under the EMI label. Check the source of the re-issues before buying.
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發表於 2016-10-9 19:40:00 來自手機 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2016-10-9 15:29
Two talks by Andrew Walter of Abbey Road Studio, UK:
The talks yesterday and today, each lasting 2 h ...

Thx for sharing.  

I suspect those non license reissues are generated from commercial reel to reel copies that were sold back in 50s / 60s.

They dont sound like generated from Lp to me.   

Labels like Spectrum and Mythos do openly claimed their CDs are produced from Lp master.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-10-9 20:36:52 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2016-10-9 20:39 編輯
jules 發表於 2016-10-9 19:40
Thx for sharing.  

I suspect those non license reissues are generated from commercial reel to ree ...


I note your point about commercial reel to reel tapes.
Based on what Andrew Walter said, their master tapes, even kept in metal boxes (he showed them in pictures) and  in proper environment deteriorated as time went by. That's part of his job to restore them.
Commercial R2R tapes were likely to be worse because the owner played them and particles went off after every play. Of course there are well preserved ones. In any case, there weren't many R2R tapes out there because they had to be dubbed one to one and the selling price was high, thus very few titles were made and sold in the market. Before the LP came along, shellac 78's were mass produced and sold, and according to Andrew they lasted much longer than tapes because of their material, good for close to a hundred years. In those days, the tracks were cut directly to wax platters each lasting 4 minutes. Metal plates (what we call positive masters) were made quickly from the wax platters and these plates after being used to make stampers were stored in their archive. This process was very similar to the direct to disk in the 70's first introduced by Sheffield Labs. No recording and storage media in between, hence more transparent sound.
Andrew mentioned and demoed one Callas track. Her repertoire were all on tapes in the archive except one, on metal plate. This information now prompts me think the Callas R2R album mentioned in one of the threads here several months ago were probably dubbed from a commercial R2R rather than an analogue tape master.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-10-9 20:54:21 | 顯示全部樓層
Oh, forgot to mention just now.
Andrew was candid about how he restored the albums. For both metal plates/shellac and LP master tapes, he first transfers them to his computer (using an ADC) and the waveforms are displayed in a large screen by which he is able to see all the cricks, crackles, noises etc. He uses a software (sort of algorithm) developed by Cambridge University to remove the unwanted artefacts. There lies the skill. Too much removal renders the music dull and transformed. Equalisation is also applied with discretion.
In other words, those reissued LPs go through digital and then back to analogue.
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發表於 2016-10-9 21:30:14 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 diamondblack 於 2016-10-9 21:39 編輯

There are quite a lot of these filters and plugins commercially available for digital track mastering and editing. Cambridge or not, up to one's judgment.
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 樓主| 發表於 2016-10-10 04:25:26 | 顯示全部樓層
diamondblack 發表於 2016-10-9 21:30
There are quite a lot of these filters and plugins commercially available for digital track masterin ...


Yes, you are right. I am on the Isotope mailing list. They have De-click, de-ess tools etc. On the other hand even software to put in wow and flutter and warmth to turn digital recordings to sound like LPs!
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