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樓主: DigitalMana

[CAS] iFi iDAC同iUSB Power測試(當iUSB 遇上Meitner MA-1/SOtM;在p.6,#106)

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發表於 2012-11-10 18:27:29 | 顯示全部樓層
甘講GE話咪好重皮?試一下放在USB-HUB之前,USB設備全部用HUB接。
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發表於 2012-11-10 19:28:21 | 顯示全部樓層
另外,請問C-HIN,USB線在IUSBPOWER的輸入與輸出端的作用明顯嗎?
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發表於 2012-11-14 15:52:24 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 simontong 於 2012-11-15 14:31 編輯

剛上完聲望聽i usb power結果只得一個,擺低錢!真係唔聽由自可,一聽就真係返唔倒轉頭,要擁有而後快!
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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-15 12:00:59 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 DigitalMana 於 2012-11-16 15:36 編輯

天書Stereophile 旗下CAS網站(http://www.audiostream.com) 嘅編輯(Michael Lavorgna)review 咗iUSB Power:

iFi iUSBPower: Taking the Audioquest Dragonfly DAC Up A Notch

The first change I noticed with the iUSBPower in my desktop system was a greater sense of dynamics and transient attack. Guitar strings had more ring, and sounds seemed to come from a quieter, more distant place. There was also greater separation between sound sources making it much easier to follow a bass line or backing vocal. Bass response was also improved and became more distinct and tuneful. Complex passages were much easier to unravel and the entire sonic picture opened up (I wanted to say blossomed but that may be too corny). Vocals sounded fuller and ever so slightly more dimensional.


I want mine here ASAP!
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發表於 2012-11-15 12:34:12 | 顯示全部樓層
DigitalMana 發表於 2012-11-7 21:11
依我理解,這個同Audioquest DBS完全不同。

Audioquest DBS 喺在USB線個shield(屏蔽)上加上DC電壓。但 ...

咁即系 ............

如果部 USB DAC 只要 Data 入, 冇 USB power 入都得嘅話,  (e.g. ARC DAC8)

只要入條兩頭蛇, 即 Data 同 power 分線入個種 , 只挿 Data 頭入電腦

就有 iUSBPower 嘅效果

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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-15 12:52:03 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 DigitalMana 於 2012-11-15 12:58 編輯
如果部 USB DAC 只要 Data 入, 冇 USB power 入都得嘅話,  (e.g. ARC DAC8)


我估唔系這麼簡單,你試下無俾VBus同GND部ARC DAC8, ARC DAC8應該會罷工
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發表於 2012-11-15 12:55:42 | 顯示全部樓層
Where can buy IFi?  and wait time how long?
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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-15 12:57:39 | 顯示全部樓層
willip 發表於 2012-11-15 12:55
Where can buy IFi?  and wait time how long?

香港聲望代理,我部就月底到貨
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發表於 2012-11-15 13:22:18 | 顯示全部樓層
DigitalMana 發表於 2012-11-15 12:52
我估唔系這麼簡單,你試下無俾VBus同GND部ARC DAC8, ARC DAC8應該會罷工 。 ...

Agree!
Most USB DAC designers are ignorant of the effect of USB power channel contamination.

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發表於 2012-11-15 16:21:50 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 elo 於 2012-11-16 14:46 編輯

Just ordered one from Tony and will receive by end of Nov.
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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-15 22:12:04 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 DigitalMana 於 2012-11-15 22:15 編輯

iFi faceBook 有詳細iUSB Power的解釋:
http://www.facebook.com/notes/if ... ply/461174733918274

It is simple. USB carries audio AND power. Many USB Audio devices power at least some part, often all of the Audio Device from the power supplied by the Computer via its USB Port. The power supply from USB Ports on PC’s is variable in quality, but always contaminated by noise. Have a look here comparing the noise from the best (lowest noise) USB Port on a PC optimised for audio idling… When playing music this is worse.



This is a lot of noise! Many common Laptops and PC’s put out tens of millivolts of noise. That is as much noise as you often get music signal and much more noise than the delicate, small details and nuances in a musical performance. Another issue is the presence of a ground connection between the Computer and the USB Audio device. This can create earth/ground loops that even if they produce no audible hum or buzz, sound quality can be impaired.

So it is little surprise that computer based audio often fails to live up to the expected and possible excellent sound quality.So why do manufacturers keep relying on USB Bus Power? Cost plays a role, as does portability and practical considerations.

Adding the iUSBPower USB Power supply and breaking the ground loop using the IsoEarth gives a major improvement in clarity, detail and musicality. Any audio device starts with the power it receives and with the iUSBPower USB Power supply your USB Audio device gets power so pure, it has even lower noise than a battery!

But the true secret weapon is the ability to break ground loops. We have measured an improvement of over 10 times even in system that are already optimised and have no audible noise.
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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-15 22:12:30 | 顯示全部樓層
iFi Audio Not sure in which way you mean this? In order to keep compatibility with high speed USB2 (480MBps) to allow multi-channel use at high sample rates/resolution we cannot employ USB isolators. All current isolators are limited to 12MBPS or 2 Channels at 96KHz, which we felt was not acceptable for modern audio. So we cannot fully, galvanically isolate the DAC and PC.

However, full isolation is not strictly needed. USB Signalling is differential, so in theory only the two signal lines are required. In practice we need somehow a ground reference. If this ground reference comes only through the USB cable, all is well.

If there additional path through other equipment and mains wiring things become problematic.

So our "IsoEarth" feature allows breaking the ground connection in a way that is reliably safe for attached equipment (sorry to be vague, but we consider the precise method a "trade secret") and does not require "earth lift" or "cheater" plugs.

As we also interrupt the power line from the computer and substitute our own super regulated very low noise supply from the Computers power we essentially only leave the two USB signal lines active and connecting between PC and DAC is IsoEarth is engaged.

I have measured differences in of around ten times (20dB) with IsoEarth engaged in systems we use for testing - that is they are already quite well treated regarding the ground noise problem!

When testing a USB Isolator marketed for Audio in the same setup I observed similar gains in ground noise levels as with the iUSBPower, suggesting that in our system at least breaking the ground line and full isolation perform comparable, objectively. I did observe that the 5V output from the USB Isolator was quite noisy due the use of an isolating DC-DC converter, which basically a small switched mode supply.

Sorry for the lengthy missive, but it is not a simple subject.
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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-15 22:13:04 | 顯示全部樓層
Secondly,the iUSBPower plugs into the USB connection between the PC/Mac and any USB Audio Device. Some of the more extreme High End gear does not draw power from the USB, the vast majority of USB Audio Devices, including USB to SPDIF Converters do.

In recent times we have seen some attempts to for example split up USB Cables and Lithium Polymer batteries to substitute the power supply, however most batteries when actually supplying are quite noisy (see our AP2 measurement which includes a 9V Dry Cell, rechargables are worse).

The iUSBPower contains noise filtering using multiple LCR filters and a so-called super regulator (as opposed to a simple cheap 3-pin regulator) which is similar but not identical to the one described by Walt Jung under this name.

As a result you isolate the USB Audio Device (including USB to SPDIF converters) from the computers power supply and you give a power supply much cleaner than that from the Computer.

Additionally we have also build in some ground impedance management and the option to break the USB ground connection entirely. This can help a lot with noise loops.

Third, you ask is it powered by an SMPS, plugtop type which we supply, however any source of around 9V DC may be applied (at your own risk, mind you). As we wanted a simple way of being able to sell and use the iFi worldwide and we wanted to avoid wasting power, we had to use a custom low noise SMPS.

In basic principle an SMPS is a much better choice power supply than using 50/60Hz rectified. The high frequency at which they produce their AC means transformers can be small and thus minimise noise leakage from the mains, they always use choke input filtering and the high frequency means relatively small components are required to filter any noise.

Another factor, such a supply may be made universal (runs on any mains voltage/frequency current, even DC) and if well designed efficiency will be very high, well over 90%.

However, many common inexpensive examples are build so badly they barely pass FCC requirements. This means they radiate a lot of noise back into the mains and often have very large levels of noise on the output.

The first examples we bought straight in shops like Radio-shack were horrendous. The noise on both the mains input side and the output side was sufficiently high to be visible easily on cheap oscilloscopes. output ripple went from 10's to 100's of millivolt.

Opening them up revealed that the RF filtering was not fitted, that the chokes and capacitors where of insufficient value and that several parts that would have produced low noise where missing, even though there where spaces provisioned on the PCB to fit them.

So we worked with a factory to produce our own plug-top power supply, which not only has all the extra parts fitted but goes beyond this. The result is a power supply that leaks very little noise into the mains (you can measure it, but it needs an expensive analyser, scope traces are clean).

Overall, a common linear supply using a transformer, common rectifiers and a 3-Pin regulator will produce more noise (including noise radiated into the mains) than our SMPS. Do not expect most SMPS's to perform similarly.
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發表於 2012-11-16 15:21:00 | 顯示全部樓層
今日上聲望訂咗,等收貨
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發表於 2012-11-16 18:44:22 | 顯示全部樓層
I am curious if this would help with Logitech SBT!!!
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發表於 2012-11-16 19:42:23 | 顯示全部樓層
等報告
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發表於 2012-11-17 10:18:36 | 顯示全部樓層
Whether iusb needs linear power supply?

http://www.computeraudiophile.co ... ex4.html#post186986

Third, you ask is it powered by an SMPS, plugtop type which we supply, however any source of around 9V DC may be applied (at your own risk, mind you). As we wanted a simple way of being able to sell and use the iFi worldwide and we wanted to avoid wasting power, we had to use a custom low noise SMPS.

In basic principle an SMPS is a much better choice power supply than using 50/60Hz rectified. The high frequency at which they produce their AC means transformers can be small and thus minimise noise leakage from the mains, they always use choke input filtering and the high frequency means relatively small components are required to filter any noise.

Another factor, such a supply may be made universal (runs on any mains voltage/frequency current, even DC) and if well designed efficiency will be very high, well over 90%.

However, many common inexpensive examples are build so badly they barely pass FCC requirements. This means they radiate a lot of noise back into the mains and often have very large levels of noise on the output.

The first examples we bought straight in shops like Radio-shack were horrendous. The noise on both the mains input side and the output side was sufficiently high to be visible easily on cheap oscilloscopes. output ripple went from 10's to 100's of millivolt.

Opening them up revealed that the RF filtering was not fitted, that the chokes and capacitors where of insufficient value and that several parts that would have produced low noise where missing, even though there where spaces provisioned on the PCB to fit them.

So we worked with a factory to produce our own plug-top power supply, which not only has all the extra parts fitted but goes beyond this. The result is a power supply that leaks very little noise into the mains (you can measure it, but it needs an expensive analyser, scope traces are clean).

Overall, a common linear supply using a transformer, common rectifiers and a 3-Pin regulator will produce more noise (including noise radiated into the mains) than our SMPS. Do not expect most SMPS's to perform similarly.
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發表於 2012-11-17 10:49:44 | 顯示全部樓層
如果再加 power supply 比佢,會唔會論盡咗的呢!
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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-17 12:17:09 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 DigitalMana 於 2012-11-17 12:21 編輯
liting 發表於 2012-11-17 10:49
如果再加 power supply 比佢,會唔會論盡咗的呢!


有可能喔,但看來個iFi power supply已經喺特別設計,低noise個種。最緊要喺嘅iUSB Power輸出的 output noise 已經喺俾9V干電池更低(充電電池比干電池noise更大),好恐怖啊:

Output Noise:         0.1uV (0.0000001V)

http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iUSB.html

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 樓主| 發表於 2012-11-17 12:32:25 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 DigitalMana 於 2012-11-17 15:17 編輯
chhanthony 發表於 2012-11-17 10:18
Whether iusb needs linear power supply?

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-co ...


"Overall, a common linear supply using a transformer, common rectifiers and a 3-Pin regulator will produce more noise (including noise radiated into the mains) than our SMPS. "

From their info, a normal linear supply may not help .
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