玩CAS階段小結

m40

They are same price...
hmm but given 9018 has 8-channel while 9012 has only 2-channel, if they price the same, i start to wonder if 9012 is really higher quality :)

From:
http://www.businesswire.com/news ... re32-Reference-DAC-–

"Both the ES9018 Sabre32 Reference 8-channel DAC and the ES9012 Sabre32 Reference Stereo DAC are sampling in 64-LQFP package and priced at $39 in quantities of 1000."

hkborn

m40 發表於 2012-5-19 18:56
They are same price...
hmm but given 9018 has 8-channel while 9012 has only 2-channel, if they price ...

because of huge demand on 9018, it's now much cheaper now

odysseyhk

"because of huge demand on 9018, it's now much cheaper now"

Are you guessing or you read their current price somewhere?

Online unit price of 9018 and 9012 are the same. See the following link.

http://ecommerce.ismosys.com/ord ... manufacturers_id=34

hkborn

cheapest 9018 chip DAC is USD750 Eastern Electric Minimax Dac

http://www.stereomojo.com/Easter ... iniMaxDACReview.htm

They would probably make a loss if order 9018 chips from the above web-site

odysseyhk

hkborn 發表於 2012-5-20 00:10
cheapest 9018 chip DAC is USD750 Eastern Electric Minimax Dac

http://www.stereomojo.com/Eastern%20E ...

Do you mean that you don't have price comparison between 9018 and 9012 from the same supplier and same quantity so far?  

Base on your response, sounds like you just reference to price of cheapest product you can find using 9018 to help you guess 9018 is cheaper than 9012?

odysseyhk

I just want to clarify the point that ES9018 and ES9012 should be of the same level of quality. There is no evident that one is better than the other.

They share the same design (ES9018 offer different configuration of output channels). Under stereo configuration, 9018 spec is same as 9012.  Their initial unit price are the same when they were announced.  And at least for one online supplier, their current unit price in small quantity are still the same.

If you go to this site with ES9012 spec download:
http://www.datasheetdir.com/ES9012+Audio-DA-Converters

It says "ES9012 is a sub package of ES9018,If you need see the description,please click ES9018 ..."

So I'm afraid I disagree with your posts which suggested ES9012 were better than ES9018 in 2CH use.

hkborn

"So I'm afraid I disagree with your posts which suggested ES9012 were better than ES9018 in 2CH use."

I welcome your comment but the fact is that there are so many cheap 9018 chinese dac around but the 9012 dac i'm aware of have higher price from USD3000 to USD45000(Qualia Indigo usb-dac). This is interesting if both are the same.

The original design of 9018 is for AV use, so OPPO is the first to apply it. Because of good marketing, so many manufacturers apply 9018 in their product

Anedio D2
Eastern Electric Minimax Dac
Yulong DAC (usd700)

it's obviously that PRC manufacturers take the lead in using 9018 chip, then spreading out to foreign companies, OPPO may be the pioneer in this regard.

The best application is exasound
http://www.exasound.com/

with proper 8 channel design and fully utilise the function of 9018.

Anyway, 9018 is a good buy for entry level dac, and i look forward to see a good review over the various application.

odysseyhk

"I welcome your comment but the fact is that there are so many cheap 9018 chinese dac around but the 9012 dac i'm aware of have higher price from USD3000 to USD45000(Qualia Indigo usb-dac). This is interesting if both are the same."

Yes, it is interesting that the spec of 9018 configured as 2CH and 9012 2CH are just the same.

Some high end manufacturers are marketing ES9012 as superior to ES9018 which is understandable. The fact is they are the same spec.

It is pretty common that the same DAC chip be used in higher end and lower end. DAC is more than just the chip. The whole end-to-end design is important.  For ES9018, high-end manufacturers are also using it, e.g. Weiss DAC202.  Pricing of a product include consideration of brand value, the overall design (matching DAC with good power supply, opamp etc.) and the sound quality it delivery at the end.  

hkborn

Did Weiss announce that they use 9018 on DAC202??
I would think Weiss does not need to disclose any particular parts they use to market their product.
Indeed overall design is more important, merchants are just too stupid to mention the chip they use, probably they know that they don't have the ability to do digital analog conversion from scratch and have to pick up mass produced chips for conversion. Bear in mind chips are designed for specific purpose, AV design is different from stereo design, if 9018=9012 but have more channels, then they are too stupid to give the same price tag.

odysseyhk

Agree that overall design is most important.

There are companies who like to disclose more and some like to disclose less. It is their marketing strategy.  

e.g. McIntosh prefer to make a press release to announce they are using ES9018 for its MCD1100 Stereo Player.

http://www.esstech.com/Pr_2011/PR_01042011_McIntosh.pdf

In the announcement, it says "The ES9018 SABRE Reference DAC supports 8-channel or stereo conversion from a digital audio input (up to 500kHz sampling rate) in PCM, DSD or SPDIF formats, features click-free soft mute, volume control, de-emphasis, programmable zero detect, per-channel customizable roll-off filter characteristics and consumes less than 100mW. For highest, performance, the MCD1100 stereo output is powered by ES9018 SABRE Reference DAC configured in Stereo Quad Balance mode, utilizing 4 D/A converters per output channel."

It is very clear that 9018 is designed for both 2 channels and 8 channels.  So please do not label it as 8 ch only design.

Given that 9018 and 9012 are same quality level for 2 channels, it is reasonable that their price tag are the same.

Please also note that ESS Tech produce both 8ch and 2ch evaluation kits for ES9018.  It is clear that 9018 is designed for 2 channels as well as 8 channels.

http://ecommerce.ismosys.com/ord ... manufacturers_id=34

hkborn

'So please do not label it as 8 ch only design. "

i didn't say that, it's ess in their website describe 9018 as 8 channel and 9012 as stereo and i quote accordingly. I didn't say 9018 cannot handle 2 channel, I just wonder why designers not use 9012 for a 2 channel design??? if 9018 performs in 2 channels the same as 9012 but it also can handle 8 channels, 9018 should be priced higher than 9012.
My guess is that there is already some publicly available 9018 dac design and manufacturers save a lot of development work.  People can have a comparison on those 9018 dac, and see how similar they are on the outlook. On 9012, manufacturers have to do from scratch.
If Weiss does not announce using 9018, how do you know then? And how can you say so in a public forum??

odysseyhk

Weiss has worked with other press and provided information that they are using ES9018.

Weiss disclosed it already through other media. Is there a problem?  

See the link quoted Daniel Weiss responded to enjoythemusic.com regarding how they use ES9018.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/sup ... ineering_dac202.htm

hkborn

Thanks for your info, then you are free to say Weiss also use 9018 if Weiss himself this in public.

It seems that Weiss does not utilise the capacity of 8 channels or DSD application. The strange thing being they use 24bit only, let the extra 8 bit idle. Clearly, 9018 has all-in capacity, from OPPO to McIntosh, from minimax to Weiss, from 2 way to multi-channel. No wonder people rush to buy these 9018 products.

天下第一刀

odysseyhk 發表於 2012-5-20 13:22
"I welcome your comment but the fact is that there are so many cheap 9018 chinese dac around but the ...

Don't forget the HIEND connection is that DAC Sync Out connect to the sound card Sync In by 75 ohm cable, and the the sound card set up to External Source

Wild_7

Dear all CHing

Any software that can boost up the output level of FLAC files ?

hkborn

Wild_7 發表於 2012-8-26 21:17
Dear all CHing

Any software that can boost up the output level of FLAC files ?

don't use software to boost up output level, this may distort the sound of music file.

sound info is recorded in digital with amplitude assigned, when playing the file, keep at maximum at digital level to ensure no signal loss, volume should be adjusted at analog level, ie by preamplfier