Combat between CAS, LP and CD

diamondblack

There are quite a lot of these filters and plugins commercially available for digital track mastering and editing. Cambridge or not, up to one's judgment.

momei

diamondblack 發表於 2016-10-9 21:30
There are quite a lot of these filters and plugins commercially available for digital track masterin ...

Yes, you are right. I am on the Isotope mailing list. They have De-click, de-ess tools etc. On the other hand even software to put in wow and flutter and warmth to turn digital recordings to sound like LPs!

eds60

momei 發表於 2016-10-9 20:36
I note your point about commercial reel to reel tapes.
Based on what Andrew Walter said, their mas ...

多謝分享。

jules

Sounds like I missed out a very interesting and informative seminar.

Did Andrew share with you guys which album remaster he worked on?

I have much reservation towards emi remastering job done in the past, no matter it is ART remastering deployed under Great Recording of the Century series for cd reissue or more recent effort in remastering for sacd reissue, they do sound inferior to first cd first pressing release in the 80s, let alone Lp, to my ears.

I m curious about what mastering engineer thinks about cd first pressing subject praised by audiophile whether it is just a scam.

diamondblack

jules 發表於 2016-10-10 06:41
Sounds like I missed out a very interesting and informative seminar.

Did Andrew share with you guys ...

I just think the engineers won't care. that's their expertise.

momei

jules 發表於 2016-10-10 06:41
Sounds like I missed out a very interesting and informative seminar.

Did Andrew share with you guys ...

*Andrew remasters too many albums to be listed, classical, jazz, pop, rock etc. all that in the Group's vault when there is a decision for particular reissues to be released. He takes on outside assignments as well. He himself is trained in classical. He needs to read chores for discussing with producers and artists which bars have to be augmented. He also spots missing and wrong notes in the performance.
*I have not bought any reissues of whatever format and therefore have no idea how they compare with the original issues.
*In my view, first pressings of CD or LP sounding better are psychological. Reason: producers and engineers know too well that pressing factories of CD or LP produce different sonic qualities. When they want to have say 20,000 copies pressed within a given time, they may have to give the "masters-actually copies of masters" to different plants. So the first run from a bad factory could sound worse than the last run from a good factory. Recently LPs are in vogue and pressing plants have orders up to their neck because only old equipment are salvaged (no one is investing in new equipment).  Small record labels jumping into the fray find it very hard to get even a factory to accept their small order, a couple of thousand copies at most, the minimum quantity a factory wants to take on because of lead and set up time for producing a particular album. You may imagine how good the quality could be. I have read about a small pressing plant the owner of which cuts the masters at half speed in order to produce the best quality. I did not mark down the name because I have not bought CDs or LPs for many years.

momei

After the session, I spoke to Andrew on the side.
1. The MQA developed by Bob Stuart of Meridian. This is sort of remastering, that claims to rectify the faults of ADCs of yesteryears.
I told him this is one technology that many consumers want it dead before they are even given the opportunity to have a listen. Because it is a closed system and consumers will be held to ransom when more and more record companies join the stable.
Andrew said he definitely would explore it.
2. He did not know about Sound Galleries Music Server that processes tracks up to 512 with Miska’s HQ player and the T + A DAC. He was interested but other attendees marched in to talk to him. So I said goodbye.

momei

There was a recent thread in this forum with the author visiting the showroom of Audio Exotics but misrepresenting it to be a home visit. In it the author said the sound was like listening to real music in different concert performances.
On this lifelike reference, I would like to talk briefly about the performances I attended yesterday and the day before. Really the real live experience has to be related to the seat, the genre of the musical piece and also what features in the recording are being compared with.
*First the Otello opera on Saturday; some 40 chorus were on stage during certain sections and accompaniment was by HK Phil in the pit. I sat in the 5th row centre seat. The chorus when they sang high and loud, exhibited a tearing sound. If I were listening to a recording, I would have blamed this “shortcoming” on distortion and compression of the speakers and microphones. The fact was the chorus actually sang directly and naturally without microphones and amplification. Also when both the tenor and soprano sang high and loud, there was resonance in the voice because they made use of the mouth (oral cavity 口腔) and diaphragm (丹田) to project the sound into the hall. Some might erroneously blame the resonance on the speakers, ringing, running out of useable range etc. Another aspect was that perhaps no audio systems were able to reproduce the moving images. The singers acted (moving around) whilst singing and the listener was able to pinpoint the image and movement with eyes closed. I do not think any audio system is able to locate images at so many points within the soundstage. Certainly mine can’t make it and indeed very far from getting close. To evaluate a system’s imaging capability, an opera track would reveal the pros and cons.
*Yesterday’s was a cello recital accompanied by a 9 ft Steinway piano. I sat in 12th row centre. The cellist was about 8 ft from the apron (edge of stage) and I was over 40 ft away from him. One recording microphone was placed about 2 to 3 ft near his instrument and another one, a foot away pointing downwards at an angle to the hammers of the piano.
The sound I heard was very different from that in my usual seat which is first two rows centre. At an over 40 ft distance, the cello had a pool of sound and the piano, another pool, with both pools assimilating or merging together. In recordings the two pools are much more separated and images of the two instruments are more easily and conspicuously locatable. Nuances and details such as scraping of bow on strings (cello) and hammers on strings (piano) usually cherished and used as references by audiophiles were practically missing (也欠缺松香味). In some audio systems placement of the cellist was akin to having him sit near the wall at the back of the speakers. Some audiophiles take that as soundstage depth which in fact is merely distance to image. The most contrasting perspective with a recording was that the sound of the cello emanated from several feet BELOW the listener’s seat. At home it would be the cellist playing from the neighbour’s flat down below, going through a transparent floor.
To get the instrument’s image at the same level as the lap of the listener as well as various nuances from it, microphones have to be placed close to it for making a recording. With such microphones placement, the correct location of the instrument when listening to a recording of it should be upfront, a couple of or several feet in front of the listener and not so far away at the back wall.

momei

There will be two demo sessions coming Saturday afternoon in Forthwise凌智 showroom. The importer had unsatisfactory sound in their room during the past two or three years in the Hi Fi Show (I reported on it honestly in posts here).
Gary Koh, the Singaporean who bought Genesis over is coming to the demo. I was unable to get a seat from Forthwise to attend, (need to go through AudioTechnique), I append here a paragraph (copy and paste) from a forum that I think describes aptly AuidoTechnique:

“”the mags' writers offer no objective writing, no truly objective comparative testing and never a bad review of even obviously questionable products. To me, that all amounts to entertainment writing, not reviewing. “”

momei

Dr AIX 對貴價線材的看法：

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Resolving High Resolution

Dr. AIX

Most of you know I'm not a believer in the sonic enhancements attributed to fancy, expensive cables. The simple fact remains that audiophiles love to argue and rant about this issue — usually from their own very subjective point of view.

The other day someone posted a question on a FB group asking whether upgrading the power cables on his system was worth it. Of course, there were immediate comments from believers and non-believers. But what surprised me was a response by a staunch supporter of expensive power cords that the reason the most listeners can't appreciate the "improved low level details and sonic accuracy" delivered by an upgraded power cord (as well as interconnects — analog and digital — and speaker cables) is because their systems are incapable of "resolving" the new level of fidelity. In simple terms, it's not that the cables aren't affecting the sound of your system. It's that your system isn't good enough to reproduce the improved fidelity. Therefore you don't hear any difference.

This is a fairly common response. When challenged with facts, measurements, and physics, cable advocates fall back and blame the equipment — or your ears. The marketing people at the cable companies and the reviewers that continue to push their agenda have done an amazing job. They've convinced audio enthusiasts that spending $200 to $3000 on a single IEC power cord will "dramatically" enhance the sound of your system. Instead of spending that money on appropriate room tuning solutions, we're told to buy adhesive dots to place around the room or invest in a power cord with unobtainium plugs.

So I responded to the challenge. I offered up my own studio, as a place I believe should be more than able to "resolve" the slightest changes caused by a deluxe power cord. After all, my mastering studio sits on its own rubber isolated concrete floor ($25,000), was designed by an award-winning studio architect ($20,000), built by a team of highly trained craftsmen who specialize in studio construction ($139,000), equipped with state-of-the-art analog and digital equipment (Euphonix, Benchmark, Meridian, Bryston, B&W, Oppo - $250,000), wired with cables from Audience and Cardas (provided by the companies but valued at many thousands), and tuned by the acoustics guru Bob Hodas ($700). I've been mixing and mastering records in my main studio for over 10 years. Many of you have heard the results. Engineers like my friend Jack Vad of the San Francisco Symphony called it, "among the best sounding rooms" he'd ever heard. So I'm very confident my room can resolve music at the highest level.

Some years ago, a small custom cable designer and builder based in Atlanta offered to send me his best power cord for evaluation — a 6-foot, $3000, blond braided IEC cord (it came in a velvet bag and wooden box). He was very confident that I would experience dramatically better "sonic details and instrument discrimination" when using his power cord on my Benchmark DAC 2 HGC. So I borrowed a second Benchmark DAC 2 and setup a parallel signal path from my digital source to my monitor system. A simple push button on my console switched between the output of one DAC (with the expensive power cord) and the other (equipped with the stock IEC cord that shipped with the unit). It was a blind A|B comparison. The question was simple — do the two sources sound the same or different (the levels were carefully aligned and measured)?

I ran the test with a variety of music sources, genres, labels, and formats. A group of professional audio engineers that work in other studios in the building (including a Grammy award winner) couldn't detect any difference — and neither could I! I simply let them listen and switch between the DACs — and no one reported hearing even the slightest change. If the designer of the cable notices a "dramatic" difference at his place, I don't know how he does it. In my "high resolving" studio, no one could hear any fidelity change when using a $3000 power cord vs. the $1.50 one that is supplied by Benchmark (and which they recommend!).

Sure, we all want to have the best possible equipment and to maximize our listening experiences. But if I were to create a list of things that will make the most impact on your sound in descending order, power cords would be very near the bottom (followed only by green magic markers). Great recordings would be near the top followed by the acoustic environment in which you listen to your music and then the speakers. These things make a huge difference.

Don't ever let someone blame your equipment or your ears when making subjective — and usually ridiculous — claims about accessories and tweaks. Use your ears and brains — and remember the famously discredited video about "audio enhancements" provided by ever more expensive AudioQuest HDMI cables from early in the year. If there is an "unbelievable" change, someone is juicing the results.

jules

Interesting article!  I m a big fan of black chicken stock iec power cord.   Having said that not all black chicken power cords are equal in performance.  

My experience is that with cheap cables there is a better chance to strike for a balanced sound. It's nice to use one or two brand name cables to spice things up a bit but need to exercise with care not to overdose.

I like the way cheap cables for their ability to  retain the integrity of harmonic structure and to unleash the natural harmonics of instrument in an unrestrained manner.  To me this is far more important than imaging, soundstage, background darkness etc all those hifi jargons which expensive brand name cables usually excel.

In case you wonder my ic between pre and power amp is just a pair of humble red white RCA.......

momei

jules 發表於 2016-11-12 01:50
Interesting article!  I m a big fan of black chicken stock iec power cord.   Having said that not al ...

When I went to Thomas Li's place, he demoed to me his Odin and another expensive one. There was a discernible difference. He also demoed to me with and without the Entreq boxes, with and without power conditioning, with and without vibration platforms, all displayed a difference. The whole system must have high resolution to reveal the slight difference. The other consideration is value and budget; one spends the money on upgrading the speakers or on cables.

haha12

momei 發表於 2016-11-11 13:48
Dr AIX 對貴價線材的看法：

Trouble viewing this email? Read it online

這是典型"買板吾知訂"  例子。

在一個調教至高度均衡頻應平順嘅音响環境，而聲音重播亦達至極高解像，是旦換一件配件或是天價缐材去破壞這 eco-system 吾輸甩褲已走運啦！

請別誤會我並非說靚缐呃錢，如果係呃錢我都俾人呃咗吾少。 然而真正 Professional Studio 要求絕對分析能力與均衡，嚴格點說要去判斷聲音的對和錯而吾系靚吾靚聲。天價缐材會做適量 full spectrum re-equalisation 去達至廠家要求嘅音色取向， Professional Studio 雖然用雞缐但在 calibration 及調聲過程中獲得 補償， 如胡亂用靚缐反而容易偏聲並不可取也。

缐材配件是好調味料，家居享受音樂始終涉及個人喜好，運用得宜可以畫龍點睛，錦上添花。

diamondblack

haha12 發表於 2016-11-12 09:17
這是典型"買板吾知訂"  例子。

在一個調教至高度均衡頻應平順嘅音响環境，而聲音重播亦達至極高解像，是 ...

或者咁睇，studio根本唔追求音色，對於sound engineers，phasing，timing準確非常重要，音色喺佢地耳中，一係已經喺佢地個腦樹自動過濾排除，一係就好似haha兄話齋，破壞系統整體平衡。

momei

Primephonic is giving out an album for free, worth Euro 31.
Go to
https://www.primephonic.com/gene ... d60c208fe-162601761

Register and use the gift code it provides. The album of 12 tracks may be downloaded free of charge.

I only test listened to the 5th track, choir of over a dozen voices with a sound quite natural and pure. It is in FLAC and should undergo a number of plays to open up the ambience. No time yet to find out how many singers and the venue where the track was recorded.

momei

現代版直刻唱片,柏林愛樂, 黑膠迷不容錯過，只有1833套, 跟Brahms 的出生年份定産量, 看來不為賺錢，只為做個歴史標記。
https://www.berliner-philharmoni ... e-brahms-vinyl.html

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2017-1-8 05:44
現代版直刻唱片,柏林愛樂, 黑膠迷不容錯過，只有1833套, 跟Brahms 的出生年份定産量, 看來不為賺錢，只為做 ...

One point recording is a very difficult and raw method to do a LP. If done right, it gives the most natural sound.

momei

Thomas, you are right. It is very difficult and demanding to record an orchestra with few microphones. The producer of this box set intended to mimic the live sound of an orchestra as heard in the hall.
Generally, to play safe, most engineers use multiple microphones. Keith O Johnson is one.
Exceptional engineers are the likes of Kenneth Wilkinson who used minimal microphones to record an orchestra. He has retired.
In this box set the producer used two sets of Sennheiser condenser microphones in crossed pair Blumlein mode. One set was placed 1 metre behind the conductor whilst the other set 4 1/2 metres above his head. In those old days the Crystal Clear label also recorded a handful of orchestral works using few microphones placed at a distance  but audiophiles disliked the sound, considering it too remote and soft even though they were direct to disc. Sheffield Lab used multiple closed microphones.
Popularly, audiophiles prefer the sound of close microphones. Some talk about the "resin" used as well as the scraping sound of the bow on strings. Some also talk about the voice emanating from the throat of the singer but that could be heard only when the microphone is at kissing distance.  
Because I sit in first or second row, I prefer forward sound.

momei

Carmina Burana by Carl Orff:
Performance by HK Phil on 3rd and 4th June in Cultural Centre, only few tickets left. Those who want to compare live with recorded sound should hurry.
For comparing analogue with digital, I use the Telarc LP and the CD of the same recording.
For listening I like the Previn, EMI recording. For the soprano role I like Kathleen Battle.
I was told the score could only be rented and not purchased.

eds60

momei 發表於 2017-1-15 20:09
Carmina Burana by Carl Orff:
Performance by HK Phil on 3rd and 4th June in Cultural Centre, only few ...

momei兄，2年半前我在温哥華聽了 Carmina Burana。那時我一早買票，買了最貴的門票，應該是最好的座位。樓上正中間，是全劇院正中間2個位置之一。我將相片給了來自台灣的指揮家曾連福先生看。

他説，“因為Carl Orff 布蘭詩歌的编制是管弦樂團與合唱團，没有双钢琴。但也有双鋼琴加打擊樂與合唱團。我是第一次見識到全部加上去的。” “原曲是沒有的，我有這首的總譜。” “後來因为節省經費，再改编成双钢琴加打擊樂，我以前在台北打擊樂團曾跟台北愛樂合唱團合作演出過。”

曾連福先生曾跟多位有名指揮學習。如1999年的「國際管樂指導者研習營」，受教於已故美國管樂大師 Fredrick Fennell 及辛辛那提音樂院教授 Rodney Winther；2004年3月於台北關渡參加指揮大師小澤征爾（Sije Ozawa）所指導的指揮大師班；同年8月，於台北參加由實踐大學所舉辦的「日本齊藤指揮法研習營」，深獲日本名指揮家川本統脩的讚許，並評論：「……節奏精確，樂句處理細緻優美」 。 2006年3月16日參加指揮大師馬捷爾（Lorin Maazel）的指揮大師班。

曾先生的簡介在以下網站。
http://gdpsband.blogspot.ca/2008/11/blog-post_1263.html?m=1