Combat between CAS, LP and CD

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-5 09:54
Hi momei,

Yes, I have dowloaded and brought some HD tracks from HDtracks, 2L, B&W and Blue Coast. ...

Hi Thomas,
I must say you are a veteran digital owner, master grade.

I know little about dCS equipment and would like to ask whether when you play ripped tracks from your Synology, do they go through the up sampling facility or not? If not, this facility may tip the advantage towards the CD.

DSD and WAV PCM. My Apple computer does not play DSD tracks directly and I have to convert them to PCM. DSD tracks sound good to me and have corrected my old notion of they being gimmicks to attract audiophile dollars.
According to a Taiwanese audio magazine, 128 files are equivalent to 16/352.8. Calculation is:  5.8448 MHz= 16 bit x 352.8k  I have not come across verification of this matter elsewhere and am unable to say whether this is correct or not. If it is, the sound should have more details than native 64 files.
I have converted both 64 and 128 files to PCM and am not in a position to say which one of DSD or WAV PCM sounds better. I think the quality of recording has more to do with good sound than the format itself.

I understand your point about getting more involved in the music when listening through the ARC pre-amp than a direct hook up to the amp. Perhaps this is what they call “euphonic sound” and the attraction to audiophiles that prefer it.

Do you use Apple computers, MacBook or iMac? I ask because the owner may use it to copy CD tracks directly without the need for a ripping software. A third party software may degrade the sound, though on the other hand one may argue it may enhance it. Since you are already using top notch equipment, preserving the original is preferable.

One more point: Does the Synology transmit tracks by way of WiFi to the dCS? Ever tried transmission by 3.0 USB cable? I ask because I have reservation about bandwidth and stability of WiFi.

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 09:37
Hi Diamondblack,
I take your point about the difference between CD and computer in their own reading ...

I seldom read white papers and publications related to Hifi, but I believe one needs to read these articles bearing in mind all the time the context of these articles.  I would agree to the conclusion of the dCS white paper you mentioned if it's written 10 years ago. I believe the advancement in recording and mastering are the most important drivers on what would be the so-called "the best" for the playback side.

When the recording and mastering are done in a 24-96 environment, upsampling during playback say to 24-192 won't do much to improve the quality over a 24-96 playback other than adding a bit more density to the sound being reproduced in my experience. However, comparing a 24-192 and a 24-96 file produced from the same native 24-192 recording master will have your eyes and ears opened. The 24-192 playback possessed much improved realism while the 24-96 sounds distorted and compressed.

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 11:10
Hi Thomas,
I must say you are a veteran digital owner, master grade.

Certainly not a veteran, actually a beginner, there are a lot to learn still.

The Synology NAS is connected to Vivaldi upsampler via a router using LAN cables. All files are upsampled to DSD format. I find DSD format give a little more defined sound stage, so there is better focus for every instrument. Vivaldi does not have WiFi function but my files are ripped in PC and transmitted to NAS using WiFi. So it is not computer direct to d/a processor.

I know some people like to use USB interface to send file because of less jitter, but it is not that convenient to play multiple files. I have over 5000 songs, 400 albums in my NAS controlled by a ipad apps. I enjoy the convenient to any song in any album. If I have to get up and do something to play a file, I would pick a disc and play it in the CD transport.

I do not use apple computer, only use ipad to control the NAS. I use EAC (Exact Audio Copy) in PC to rip CD, the software will double check the ripped file with the disc to make sure the copy is correct, that is why it is called exact audio copy.

I agree with diamondblack that CD/SACD transport still sound a little better than CAS, but CAS is catching up fast, who knows in the future things can change.

momei

diamondblack 發表於 2015-1-5 11:56
I seldom read white papers and publications related to Hifi, but I believe one needs to read these ...

Hi Diamondblack,
Off hand I do not remember the date of the white paper but would say it might well be written some 5 years ago.

I take your point about the native recording format and the resultant loss during processing to CD if it was originally recorded in high res. When you mentioned eyes and ears could be opened when listening to the original 24/192 after accustomed to the downward processed CD sound of the same recording, I presume you agree that 24/192 gives a more detailed and less compressed sound than CD. Based on this, it seems to me you and I are able to agree that CD without upward sampling sounds (played at 16/44.1) worse than CAS when high res tracks of the same recording are played at 24/174.6 etc (I don't use any more the term "from the same master" as that may generate a new round of opinions as to what it is).

What remain are a couple of basic matters and I mention two in order to keep this post short:
1. the sound of a high end CD with upward sampling facility when playing a CD disc in comparison with that of a native high res track from the same recording played by CAS at the native format. That was what I asked Thomas about as to whether he had carried out such comparison or not because he said his some of his CDs and SACDs discs sounded better when played in the transport than the ripped ones played with his NAS. What I wanted to say was high res tracks should sound better than the CD disc, both from the same recording, even though the CD was played with up sampling facility on the fly.
2. what I have been trying to say in these pages is that CAS playing 24/176.4 or 192 tracks sound better (more real) than CD transport playing tracks from the same recording even with up sampling on the fly. Some may argue not many high res tracks are available etc. What I try to demonstrate in the combat is that CD tracks when pre up sampled and then played with CAS could sound better than the same tracks played with the discs in the transport.

diamondblack

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-5 12:36
I agree with diamondblack that CD/SACD transport still sound a little better than CAS, but CAS is catching up fast, who knows in the future things can change.

I actually ditched my low-mid end CDP 2 years ago in favor of an Ethernet-based NAS streaming system, when the NAS streaming configuration, which was run in parallel with the CDP+streamer DAC at that time, started to reproduce "better" quality of sound comparing to that CDP.

The search for better playback quality from NAS streaming did not stop there and continued to evolve at quite an astonishing pace in the last 2 years, using a combination of mostly off-the-shelf network and computer equipment and tailor-made power supplies and connections. The focuses have been on feeding cleaner electricity to the digital source (i.e. the NAS and the networking equipment) and streamer, and improving vibration control. I am quite confident to say the money invested is worth every penny and it would be hard to find (not no) a digital spinning source to take it down.

I keep a universal disc player (i.e. a Blu-ray player) so I have kind of a last resort escape when I really need to spin a CD.

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-5 12:36
Certainly not a veteran, actually a beginner, there are a lot to learn still.

The Synology NAS is ...

Hi Thomas,
I understand better your system set up now, thanks.
One more point; not arguing but more a matter of interest.
Have you played 2L 24/352.8 DXD and 24/192/176.4 WAV tracks directly from your NAS to dCS DAC, that is, bypassing the upsampler, and compared the sound with same tracks going through the upsampler? Are your amps digital ones or of conventional genre? I ask because I have heard two systems pre-processing all tracks to 1 bit before sending them to the digital amp.

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 13:53
Hi Diamondblack,
Off hand I do not remember the date of the white paper but would say it might wel ...

I don't like upsampling and "upbiting". Red book CD is red book CD.

Solely by comparing the numbers, 24/32-44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192/352.8/384 must be larger than 16-44.1. BUT the sound being reproduced by spinning a CD in a CDP/T must be inferior than a CAS-based system, in my opinion, is not definite (yet). There are simply too many factors big and small which can affect the sound reproduction quality.

As I said in my previous response, transport commands a handsome premium for a reason (the dCS Vivaldi SACDT is the most expensive component among the 4-box solution), and at the moment, it would take a lot of one's effort to make a CAS-based system sings. That's all the 30 years of R&D on spinning CD and went into the transport, which resolved a lot of the sticky problems which CAS audiophiles are facing. As of now, I won't draw a conclusion that CDPs/Ts, especially high-end ones like dCS Vivaldi, are already obsolete.

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 14:15
Hi Thomas,
I understand better your system set up now, thanks.
One more point; not arguing but mor ...

dCS uses the upsampler unit as the "DDC" so it's not possible to test what you are proposing.

momei

diamondblack 發表於 2015-1-5 14:00
I actually ditched my low-mid end CDP 2 years ago in favor of an Ethernet-based NAS streaming syst ...

Hi Diamondblack,
From this post of yours I am now able to see your point about CAS (NAS) versus CD player.
It seems you and I agree on many matters in regard to CAS (NAS) versus CD player. Perhaps the exception is my point about an affordable CAS (a MacBook or iMAC + DDC + DAC, costing about HK$20K) playing hi res tracks or CD tracks up sampled to hi res, that rivals or even exceeds the sound of a CD player costing 5 or more times.

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 14:15
Hi Thomas,
I understand better your system set up now, thanks.
One more point; not arguing but mor ...

Dear momei,

I understand your point about native high res files vs downsampled CD. In the real world I find things don't go exactly that way. When you buy HD track from those online stores, you don't know whether the files are really native or just CD files upsampled to what ever frequencies you want. It would be difficult for music labels like Sony to hand out their native files, unless you hack into its server. I find some of the files I brought from them sound just ordinary.

Vivaldi DAC cannot take signal directly from NAS. The NAS signal has to go through Vivaldi upsampler between going to DAC.

If everything being equal, it is logical that a HD files should sound better than a spinning disc. Things are never equal. To me, I think the single most important factor that affect digital to analog sound is the timing, ie jitter control. Spinning disc has been around for quite some time, jitter control is more developed than CAS. That is why hi end disc transport still have the upper hand.

I have played a lot with the Vivaldi clock. Being a top notch clock on its own right, it can be heavily affected by different cables, power cord, isolation and 10mHz external GPS reference. Just taking the GPS reference away degrades the sound. It convinces me that timing is everything in modern d/a processing.

momei

diamondblack 發表於 2015-1-5 14:27
I don't like upsampling and "upbiting". Red book CD is red book CD.

Solely by comparing the numb ...

Hi Diamondblack,
Apologies for not knowing product prices. The whole Vivaldi front end that Thomas bought cost him over HK$1m?
I won't go as far as saying hi end CD transports with up sampling facilities grouped into 3 to 4 box solutions are obsolete as of now and the case in point is the Goldmund Apologue at the 2014 Hi Fi Show that stunned me.
What I am trying to say is that for those readers in this website who intend to spend HK$100k downwards or upwards for a CD transport should think twice before taking the plunge.

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-5 14:44
Dear momei,

I understand your point about native high res files vs downsampled CD. In the real wo ...

Hi Thomas,
I appreciate your sharing the experience of the importance of jitter and the clock in digital sound system.
I am quite confused. There was an article in the West about comparing different clocks and came to the conclusion that adding or substituting an external clock was unnecessary. I don't know. Perhaps the speaker system masks the small differences. Or maybe, good sound or not relates to the personal preferences of the listener.

What speakers and amps are you using?

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 15:13
Hi Thomas,
I appreciate your sharing the experience of the importance of jitter and the clock in d ...

I use Wilson Audio Alexia speaker and Pass Labs Xs 150 amp.

The clock has a very obvious effect on the focus and sound stage. With no clock on the system, everything will sound flat, focus is not well defined. When I put the clock in the system and every digital equipment synchronizes with the same clock, the whole sound picture becomes 3 dimensional.

When the clock is enhanced with GPS reference, the focus sharpened up a lot more. The bass suddenly has more details and the treble reaches higher. It is a very interesting situation, the tonal balance is not affected by the clock but the dynamic and articulation is boosted with a high quality clock and that is for sure.

I have used the dCS Elgar and Verdi Encore system before switching to Vivaldi. It was at that time when dCS first introduced an external clock in digital system. Even with Edgar, adding clock enhanced all the features I mentioned.

In order to appreciate this effect, you need to have a reasonable system which is properly setup. Good speaker placement is important if you want hear 3D sound images. You should be able to hear people clapping hands around you and behind you when you played live recording like Eagles: Hell Freezes Over. If you can hear that you can easily tell the difference made by the clock.

momei

Hi Thomas,
Your post educated me. I never thought a stereo system is able to have sound wrapping around the listener in manner as you said:
""You should be able to hear people clapping hands around you and behind you when you played live recording like Eagles: Hell Freezes Over. If you can hear that you can easily tell the difference made by the clock."
I have this Eagles track and the audience is behind the speakers near the back of the wall. I am unable to imagine the possibility of the audience appearing around the listener!! Much like in a live concert.
I trust you have the album Belafonte at Carnegie Hall. The track Matilda, several minutes before the end with audience clapping. How does that sound in your system?

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 15:00
Hi Diamondblack,
Apologies for not knowing product prices. The whole Vivaldi front end that Thomas ...

For a digital source of $20K including DAC to eclipse the performance of a $100K CDT (i.e. no DAC so I assumed the DAC would cost another say $100K), if using off-the-shelf consumer products, is a very tall order if not unachievable at this moment of time. The possibility would be improved if it's a $20K DIY budget.

Dollar sign is not a good proxy of sound playback capability but what you are suggesting is just too big a gap to fill. Quality of music playback involves a lot more than the bit and sampling figures.

leoking

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-5 15:39
I use Wilson Audio Alexia speaker and Pass Labs Xs 150 amp.

The clock has a very obvious effect o ...

Thomas hing

The 3D soundstage created is indeed phenomenal. I am using the big Maggie 20.7 which soundstage creation is always breathtaking and yet, when playing Hell Freezes Over "the clapping hands" could come nowhere close to what described. At the best they came about half way between speakers and myself.

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 16:28
Hi Thomas,
Your post educated me. I never thought a stereo system is able to have sound wrapping aro ...

Sorry, I just happen not to have Belafonte at Carnegie Hall, I always want to buy a SACD version but it is difficult to find. HMV should have it, I shall go there to have a look and see if I can find one. I shall let you know what I hear.

A 3D sound stage is certainly possible with a two channel stereo setup. There are many test CD to show this point. Some of them has a single person talking while he walk around the room. If your system is probably setup, you can hear the person speaking from all four corners of your room.

momei

diamondblack 發表於 2015-1-5 16:33
For a digital source of $20K including DAC to eclipse the performance of a $100K CDT (i.e. no DAC  ...

Hi Diamondblack,
What I quoted is a rough ballpark figure: $100k being a CD player without a DAC to be purchased separately; whilst if the sum is to be spent on a transport, then the combat would be with the transport using the owner's separate DAC.

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-5 17:08
Sorry, I just happen not to have Belafonte at Carnegie Hall, I always want to buy a SACD version b ...

Hi Thomas,
I would suggest you only buy the CD of the Belafonte because this live recording was made in 1959 (I just checked) onto analogue tape. Even if a SACD is available, it was resampled in recent years and to be sold at over 2 times the CD price. Not worth to pay the difference for such resampling in my view.

Eagles's Hell Freezes Over: Would you please tell me which track has the audience clapping around the listener? I have listened to the whole album perhaps only twice and later focussed mainly on Hotel California. The audience only appears near the back wall, that is, at the back of the stage as well as on the side.  

An audio setup in Stereo mode reproduces a speaking voice from each of the 4 corners of the listening room is beyond my imagination. And I have never read about such possibility anywhere. I am pretty sure my system is unable to do that no matter how I juggle the stuff around.

You mentioned you have downloaded albums from 2L. Have you got 2L- 050 Simple Symphony and 2L-090 Souvenir de Florence? Based on the stage layout and notes, these recordings were made for 5 channels surround, with 20 odd players sitting in a circle and microphones placed in the centre. Playing the mixed down DXD in two channel, my system is only able to reproduce the ensemble sitting around the two speakers, that is, the microphones being placed at the plane of and between the centre of the two speakers. The layer of players sitting between the listener and the speakers only appear at loud passages and are very faintly heard when they play soft. Of course in a real concert, they all sit facing the audience. It so happened the Moscow soloists performed these two numbers in Nov last year; only the second movement of the Simple Symphony and all four of the Souvenir. By the way I preferred the sound of St Martins in the Fields that came also last year. Hall acoustics did not affect the sound as I always couch at the centre seat of the first two rows, with mainly direct propagation reaching me.

momei

leoking 發表於 2015-1-5 16:52
Thomas hing

The 3D soundstage created is indeed phenomenal. I am using the big Maggie 20.7 which ...

Hi Leo,
Do you have the Belafonte LP? (I have two copies, one for playing and one for reserve, both in storeroom for some time).
If you have, where does the clapping appear in your listening room towards the end of the Matilda track?
Carnegie Hall (Avery Fisher after renovation) only has audience in front of the stage and on both sides up at the balcony.
I remember my LP rendition only has the audience at the back of the stage but now the CAS has over half of the them along the two side walls to half way between the speakers and the listener.
I would say your system reproducing the audience clapping at the Eagles concert, anchored at half way between the speakers and the listener is already excellent in my book.