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樓主: momei

[分享] Combat between CAS, LP and CD

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發表於 2015-1-6 07:19:41 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 diamondblack 於 2015-1-6 07:21 編輯
momei 發表於 2015-1-6 06:05
Hi Diamondblack,
What I quoted is a rough ballpark figure: $100k being a CD player without a DAC t ...


This won't change my opinion, for now. Don't underestimate what a spinning player is capable to give. Don't just focus on one or two aspects of an entire piece of music which hi-res has upper hand.
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 樓主| 發表於 2015-1-6 07:46:55 | 顯示全部樓層
diamondblack 發表於 2015-1-6 07:19
This won't change my opinion, for now. Don't underestimate what a spinning player is capable to gi ...

Hi Diamondblack,
Got your point. Thanks.
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發表於 2015-1-6 09:11:29 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2015-1-6 07:01
Hi Leo,
Do you have the Belafonte LP? (I have two copies, one for playing and one for reserve, bot ...

Hi Momei

Let me pull out the aforesaid  LP (in very poor condition) and see how it goes. My impression on Alexia is strong in many aspects; however, soundstage is not one of them. What Thomas has achieved is indeed spectacular!
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 樓主| 發表於 2015-1-6 09:33:34 | 顯示全部樓層
leoking 發表於 2015-1-6 09:11
Hi Momei

Let me pull out the aforesaid  LP (in very poor condition) and see how it goes. My impre ...

Thanks Leo for participating. I asked you to listen to this LP was to see how your large Maggie perform in terms of the audience clapping, in light of its achievement in Hell Freezes Over. Also the mouth size of the singer should be well focussed and contained rather than enlarged in tandem with the soundstage expansion.
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發表於 2015-1-6 12:06:50 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2015-1-6 09:33
Thanks Leo for participating. I asked you to listen to this LP was to see how your large Maggie pe ...

多謝提點, 小弟對音㘯、結像倒還有相當信心,不需要試來試去,亦無意參予CAS方面有關討論,因為對此冇半點認識 只是被Thomas hing 做出來嘅3D soundstage 勾起興趣而已
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發表於 2015-1-6 12:12:24 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2015-1-6 06:46
Hi Thomas,
I would suggest you only buy the CD of the Belafonte because this live recording was ma ...

Thanks momei for your advice.

Yesterday I ran to HMV and checked for SACD of Belafonte, they only had one copy in Causeway Bay, it was HK$270.

I have asked the staff to transfer it to his store so that I can get it today. They have the CD version as well but I prefer the sound of DSD for better sound staging. You shall be informed of the result when I hear to it tonight.
Also I shall try to hear to the 2L file you mentioned.

In the beginning of the track Hotel California, there is some hand claps, the surround effect is not very strong. About 30 seconds into it when the main guitar melody hits, the crowd erupts into screaming, clapping and whistles. I can clearly hear the crowd engulfs me. The 3D effect is very strong.

As far as sound staging is concerned, room acoustic plays a determining role. You are not listening to your speakers, you are listening to the sound wave generated in your room. If you have some space behind your sitting position, it helps a lot to bring the sound around you. I have a dining table behind my listening position, so there is space to breath, and you need space to breath in front as well. Keeping the equipment to the side gives better image in the center.
2015-01-06 07.10.42.jpg

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 樓主| 發表於 2015-1-6 14:24:26 | 顯示全部樓層
ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-6 12:12
Thanks momei for your advice.

Yesterday I ran to HMV and checked for SACD of Belafonte, they only ...

Hi Thomas,
Thanks for your advice on how to get sound engulfing the listening seat. Unfortunately my room is almost square in shape and the listening seat is tugged against the wall at the back. No room to breathe, thus no "surround" sound.

As to the Eagles track, I am able to hear the audience yelling and clapping at the timing you mentioned. That was when Don Felder played the lead passage, with Glenn Frey to his right providing chord accompaniment. But the audience did not even come out to the plane of the speakers, let alone beyond them. There was another applause later on, somewhere near the time when Joe Walsh on the left played his guitar solo (he used his figures as opposed to Felder and Frey using picks, thus his guitar sound was softer). Not much better projection of the audience as the first one you mentioned. The wrapping round sound you achieve is sensational and I am keen to see how the two 2L albums fare in your system.
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發表於 2015-1-6 22:20:36 | 顯示全部樓層
很理想的聆聽環境
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發表於 2015-1-6 22:27:54 | 顯示全部樓層
ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-6 12:12
Thanks momei for your advice.

Yesterday I ran to HMV and checked for SACD of Belafonte, they only ...

流到成地口水。。。。
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發表於 2015-1-6 23:10:29 | 顯示全部樓層
A friend of mine, who is an experienced hifi enthusiast, asked me if my hifi system could produce sound surrounding/ engulfing the 皇帝位. This was the first question he asked me when enquiring the performance of my 2-channel system. He also told me that room acoustics could account for some 50% of the overall sonic performance.
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發表於 2015-1-6 23:15:35 | 顯示全部樓層
事實上,如花費數十萬元在Hi Fi system上仍未能造到声音罩住皇帝位,革命未算成功呢!  小弟有幸在友人家中聽過。
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發表於 2015-1-6 23:27:06 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2015-1-6 14:24
Hi Thomas,
Thanks for your advice on how to get sound engulfing the listening seat. Unfortunately  ...

I just get Belafonte SACD. It sounds great and you are right, it recorded and mixed in the old fashion way. Though it sounds great but the sound stage is not its strong point. In the last track, Matilda, the clapping and song along by the crowd were staged in the same plane as the speakers. The width is good but the depth is limited.

In order to get to some sort of surround effect, the track has to be mastered with digital signal processing. By changing the phase angle of individual channel, the surround effect is simulated.

I wonder if you have the XLO reference recordings. I enclosed its cover for your reference. In this disc, it will demonstrate the effect of in phase and out of phase sound. There is a person speaking and walking around the room.
a.jpg
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發表於 2015-1-6 23:28:50 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 charliey 於 2015-1-6 23:30 編輯

glad to see WA!
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發表於 2015-1-7 07:59:02 | 顯示全部樓層
ThomasLi 兄的room treatment 造得好好。濑叭後有窗簾吸音、而冇电視机反射声波。正!
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發表於 2015-1-7 08:09:16 | 顯示全部樓層
ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-6 12:12
Thanks momei for your advice.

Yesterday I ran to HMV and checked for SACD of Belafonte, they only ...

Thomas 兄

環境不錯,加上超級音源,效果一定理想。

兄一定喜歡直接聲音,所以把喇叭的保護網也拿下。
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 樓主| 發表於 2015-1-7 09:21:10 | 顯示全部樓層
ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-6 23:27
I just get Belafonte SACD. It sounds great and you are right, it recorded and mixed in the old fas ...

Hi Thomas,
You acted real fast: got the Belafonte SACD and listened to it already.
I find it very strange. Given the audience clapping performance in Hotel California, I expect the same to arise from the Belafonte track. But you hear the opposite effect, the same tipping over as I hear in the Hotel California track. As I mentioned previously, from my CAS I am able to get some 60% of the applause along the two sides, mimicking to some extent the real life situation during the recording. Belafonte is at the plane of the speakers, with a mouth size slightly larger than life.
I am very sensitive to mouth size and phase of vocal recordings, perhaps because of my frequent encounters with live singing. For example, I sat last night, 3rd row centre in the new wing of 高山 theatre in Hung Hom. Even with every solo singer through the microphone, I was able to pinpoint the mouth when I closed my eyes.
As regards the Belafonte SACD, my first inclination is to blame the conversion to DSD. You may be surprised that conversion software changes the phase. Recently I had the opportunity to test a number of beta versions with a designer. Even though he did not touch the phase but changing the algorithm of other parameter(s) somehow upset it.
Thank you for advising me about the XLO Reference Recording. I do not have it. Talking about this label, I would say more than one of the HRx data discs are in inverted absolute phase. I do not know why Profession Johnson, the key recording engineer is not aware of it. Also any info about this label having changed hands? It was founded by JT Henderson. Is he out of scene now?
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 樓主| 發表於 2015-1-7 11:31:41 | 顯示全部樓層
Hi Thomas
Forgot to mention just now.
You observed wide but shallow soundstage. That's prima facie indication of the absolute phase having been inverted.
Your dCS gear must have phase inversion switch somewhere. You invert the phase whilst playing the track and see whether the issue is redressed or not.
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發表於 2015-1-7 11:46:46 | 顯示全部樓層
momei 發表於 2015-1-7 11:31
Hi Thomas
Forgot to mention just now.
You observed wide but shallow soundstage. That's prima facie i ...

Thanks for the update. I shall have more listening this evening and will try to revert the phase.

Check my library again, I don't have the two 2L tracks that you mentioned, so I can't comment on them.
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 樓主| 發表於 2015-1-7 13:12:36 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 momei 於 2015-1-7 13:16 編輯
ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-7 11:46
Thanks for the update. I shall have more listening this evening and will try to revert the phase.
...


Hi Thomas,
The 2L-090 (Souvenir) is an excellent recording. Don't miss it. It also has an LP version.

2L-050 (Simple Symphony) Movement 2; one would be able to compare the 2L version with the track that went into the 2014 hi fi show disc (I have no interest to open it yet).
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發表於 2015-1-7 13:41:45 | 顯示全部樓層
A very good read in this thread, I learned a lot here.

Concerned with the <Matilda> Of Belafonte, do you guys can appreciate the variation in the position of Belafonte? I remember an audiophile told me that one can even notice the vertical position (e.g. stand-up vs sit down on stage). In fact, the singer use a microphone in hand when singing.
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