Combat between CAS, LP and CD

momei

Guru Acoustics is amongst the very few importers in Hong Kong who is willing to accept audio components represented by others for slotting into its own brands for the purpose of comparison.
It is a pity when I see today the Astell & Kern event at Guru Acoustics is not going to be well attended with 15 persons maximum.
I always have the thought of staging a meaningful combat between CAS, LP and CD and for this matter hope to able to latch onto the willingness of Guru Acoustics of accepting outside CAS, for a second event in Feb or March after Chinese New Year, such event to be arranged by Hiendy of course.
So if both Hiendy and Guru Acoustics are agreeable, I will bring over my computer and DAC for a session. I mentioned “meaningful” above in the sense that the tracks used for the 3 formats should come from the SAME master, during the first part of the session. For this I will bring over a couple of direct to disks LPs and CDs with correspondingly ripped tracks in the computer. For the second part, Guru Acoustics or attendees will play their LPs that they think should best demonstrate the quality of this format, and I will see if I have tracks of similar genre in my computer for match and play.
Those die-hard followers of LP or CD would have an opportunity of listening for themselves a direct comparison with a “proper” CAS, though basically a mundane one comprising an Apple computer, an outdated DAC (that I will replace when it breaks down in due course) and DDC and power supply from China.
So if readers are interested, express their intention here and Hiendy will see whether it wants to stage and arrange such a session or not.

PS: If there is time, though very unlikely, I could also demonstrate how a pre-amp degrades the sound. It is inevitable for LP, in the case of CD as well if there is no independent volume control. Even a "line drive" that I used previously degraded the sound!

nagramen

Based on my limited experience, LP can beat CD for a significant margin for the identical budgets. Just my 2cents!

nagramen

Also, a preamp works best with only one input connected to a source. This is not immediately obvious because a preamp is supposed to be connected to a few sources. Maybe due to common grounding problem!

momei

nagramen 發表於 2014-12-27 14:08
Also, a preamp works best with only one input connected to a source. This is not immediately obvious ...

Nagramen,
Your point of more than one sound source degrades the sound may be tested easily by an owner.
When he plays an LP, he unplugs the AUX cables for others and listens whether there is any difference in sound. The same procedure when he plays AUX, for example, CD, he unplugs the LP in and listens whether there is difference or not.
If his CD player has volume control, he may bypass the pre-amp and connects the CD out directly to the amp. He will be able to listen whether the pre-amp degrades the sound or not.
I tested with my computer, with MIDI controlling the volume. Bypassing the line drive improved sound clarity.

hibabe

nagramen 發表於 2014-12-27 14:04
Based on my limited experience, LP can beat CD for a significant margin for the identical budgets. J ...

Agree to that.  To me is more like a common sense.
I choose CAS over LP or CD regardless.

momei

hibabe 發表於 2015-1-3 15:57
Agree to that.  To me is more like a common sense.
I choose CAS over LP or CD regardless. ...

Well, CAS when properly set up to play "processed" tracks outperforms LPs in many respects at a much lower price. Even in parameters such as voice, violin, acoustic guitar and piano, let alone dynamic range, bass impact etc.
I do not sell these things, thus no axe to grind; merely want to convince doubting Thomas's and correct outdated notions.

ThomasLi@FB

In my CAS system, a ripped CD or SACD file sounds very close to playing the disc directly from CD transport. The difference is so small that I now play CAS most of the time for the convenience.

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-3 21:29
In my CAS system, a ripped CD or SACD file sounds very close to playing the disc directly from CD tr ...

From what you said, I guess your CD transport does not have up sampling function on the fly (whilst playing). So your ripped tracks have the same compression and limitation as the original CD or SACD file, thus sounding similar. Current high end CD players have up sampling facility as well as current generation filters that improve the sound. It was not stated in the Goldmund Apologue demo in the 2014 Hi Fi show that the sound from the CD transport had been "improved" in such a way. Indeed few buyers of that excellent (expensive) system care to find out details of its inner workings. My understanding and experience of improvements come from "interpolation" up sampling (not the old method of merely adding zeros) and the use of what they call 3 rd generation filters.

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2015-1-4 12:41
From what you said, I guess your CD transport does not have up sampling function on the fly (whils ...

My CD transport is dCS Vivaldi transport, it has built in upsampling to 24/352.8 or DSD. My digital front end is full stack of dCS Vivaldi.

I ripped all discs myself with EAC in computer for CD and PS3 for SACD. With the same disc, playing it directly from CD transport gives slightly warmer sound and a little more resolution when it is compared with using NAS. The NAS and router is supplied with linear power supply.

Most of the listening is done using CAS, only when there is a need to play a track to its best sound then I use the transport.

CKKeung

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-4 18:28
My CD transport is dCS Vivaldi transport, it has built in upsampling to 24/352.8 or DSD. My digita ...

Hi Thomas,

Your NAS-CAS being close to the Vivaldi transport is not simple!  Congratulation!   

Please share with us the details of its configuration.  Many thanks!  

ThomasLi@FB

CKKeung 發表於 2015-1-4 20:13
Hi Thomas,

Your NAS-CAS being close to the Vivaldi transport is not simple!  Congratulation!   {: ...

Hi CKKeung,

I have used ARC 40th Anniversary pre amp for some time. The sound suits my taste so it was recently changed to ARC Reference 10. Ref 10 has slightly better resolution and more defined sound stage.

My CAS uses Synology DS213j NAS through Netgear AC1900 router. It goes through dCS Vivaldi upsampler. All signals are upsampled to DSD between sending D/A processor.

From my experience, there are several things that affect the sound from CAS.

1. The power supply has to be clean. Common switching power supply is very noisy. It has to be replaced with linear power supply.
2. The LAN cable has a strong influence of the sound, use the best LAN cables you can buy and you will not be disappointed. I use Audioquest Diamond.
3. dCS uses external clock for the whole digital front end. The performance of the clock determines the sound. Adding a GPS disciplined clock for 10mHz reference boosts the performance of the clock by some margin. The clock should not be overlooked if you want the best result, even the digital cable for the clock can have effect on the sound.
4. Isolation or vibration control will sharpened up the sound and enhances image.

Setting up a good sounding CAS/NAS is like setting up a good analog system. Everything counts. It really takes some times and effort to triad and error, in order to get the best result.

charleslinnfans

疊到成四五層,勵害！

CKKeung

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-4 22:08
Hi CKKeung,

I have used ARC 40th Anniversary pre amp for some time. The sound suits my taste so i ...

Thomas hing : Pls check pm.  Thanks.   

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-1-4 22:08
Hi CKKeung,

I have used ARC 40th Anniversary pre amp for some time. The sound suits my taste so i ...

Hi Thomas,
失敬，失敬, you actually use top notch equipment.
Just a matter of interest. Other than ripping CD and SACD tracks, have you purchased NATIVELY recorded high resolution tracks in 24/176.4, 24/192, 24/352.8 and DSD 128 formats? If so what is your opinion of the sound from these native high res tracks in comparison to that from ripped CD and SACD tracks? Also, ever compared the sound from downward processed CD or SACD tracks with, for example, that from 24/176.4 (Reference Recordings) and 24/352.8 (2L) data files coming from the same master? Such comparison will show the loss during the process of making CD and SACD and how effective the subsequent upward sampling is able to put back some of the data lost in the original downward processing.
Also, does any of your Vivaldi equipment have a volume control that enables you to bypass the ARC pre-amp? A direct hook up to the amp will tell you whether the ARC degrades the sound or not.

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 07:31
Hi Thomas,
失敬，失敬, you actually use top notch equipment.
Just a matter of interest. Other than ...

Even if doing so, this is not an apple-to-apple comparison. There is no way you can compare fairly the playback quality of the data in the CD and the post-mixing so-called native high-res master by bare ears. The playback mechanism of CD and file are completely different even if you are using the same DAC and equipment further downstream.

AND, the transport unit commands a handsome price for a reason.

momei

Hi Diamondblack,
I take your point about the difference between CD and computer in their own reading and playback mechanisms. But as audiophiles if the computer does the job better, why still go for the CD? This is the very point I have been making in these pages and the reason for offering a comparison.
Well, would you suggest another method of comparison that is better and fairer than what I suggested? Measurements have limited uses as most audiophiles know. A/B listening tallies closer to personal preferences.  dCS in earlier years said in a white paper with all sorts of supporting measurements that 16/44.1 was adequate, 24/96 was more than enough and going beyond that was a waste. I believed in my own ears and bought high res tracks. Now dCS make gears going up to 24/352.8 and of course give no apologies to those who by trusting the white paper, had been misled into buying 16/44.1 stuff.
The CD transport unit has to add in a lot of "saving" facilities to make its sound comparable to the current quality from digital files playback. So consumers have to pay heftily for that. My point is: don't be misled by manufacturers and hi fi magazines that have taken ad money. Go for the simpler and cheaper way of CAS, and a mundane and affordable CAS system is good enough. Raison d'etre of the proposed combat.

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 07:31
Hi Thomas,
失敬，失敬, you actually use top notch equipment.
Just a matter of interest. Other than ...

Hi momei,

Yes, I have dowloaded and brought some HD tracks from HDtracks, 2L, B&W and Blue Coast. I find DSD format sounds better in my system when compared with other formats and frequencies.

dCS Vivaldi cannot handle double DSD, so I cannot tell whether DSD128 is better, but in general, DSD format is better. I think the way the music is recorded and mastered is more important than the format and frequencies. Some of the 16/44.1 or 24/44.1 files sound great. The 16/44.1 files I ripped from my CD collection sounds great. In fact, the best sounding files are the DSD files I ripped from SACD using a PS3.

I have compared different files ripped from the same disc using different PS3. They sounds different. I am lucky to find a mint PS3 with firmware lower than 3.55. Everyone knows the laser pickup head will age with usage. If you have a really used PS3 with many hours of playing, the laser head would not be top notch.

Vivaldi has volume control and it sound great playing it direct to power amp. There is slightly more resolution, more punch and dynamics. But it is a bit too harsh for my taste and can sound edgy with some misic. I find myself can fall into the music much easier with the preamp. Playing without preamp, I tend to listen to the sound, the different frequencies, not the music if you know what I mean.

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-1-5 09:37
Hi Diamondblack,
I take your point about the difference between CD and computer in their own reading ...

Comparison must be done between systems not data source, and preferably using kind of the "same" data source, such as red book CD vs 16-44.1 wav files (well vinyl is vinyl but people has been comparing LP to red book CD. So be it). And, the comparison would only be meaningful by comparing systems of more or less the same cost to buy or build, i.e. say for example a 50K CDP/T versus a 50K CAS solution, assuming that are using the same DAC.

My experience is, at the low-mid end category say below 30K (excluding DAC), CAS-based system can beat CD system quite handily at a much lower cost. Moving up the ladder it would be increasingly harder for a CAS-based system to beat a CD system. When we are talking about top-notch source equipment, for example Thomas's dCS Vivaldi SACD transport, it will take a lot of one's time, thoughts, research, sourcing, space and money to build a CAS-based system that can MATCH the performance of the transport, not to mention surpass it.

CD system is by far the easiest among the 3 major source categories (vinyl, CD, CAS) to set up with satisfactory performance.

For CAS to perform at a high level, though many would disagree, how (meaning the environment) a CD is ripped and how files (hi-res or not) are downloaded from the internet fundamentally define how good the playback quality would be.

CKKeung

diamondblack 發表於 2015-1-5 10:07
Comparison must be done between systems not data source, and preferably using kind of the "same" d ...

I agree totally with Diamondblack兄!
It's obvious that he is a high-hand/veteran in CAS!

betta

CKKeung 發表於 2015-1-5 10:36
I agree totally with Diamondblack兄!
It's obvious that he is a high-hand/veteran in CAS!
{:5_167: ...

I agree totally with Diamondblack兄 X 2