現在還需要CD機嗎? [分享討論]

vhs

greenleo 發表於 2019-1-24 22:23
按CDT的定義，是CD player 只作transport(傳輸)，不作解碼(DAC 或者decode)。

Chord 的Blu2 CD Player極 ...

小弟真的欣賞你尋根究底及以文會友的作風。

Sa683s

jackt 發表於 2019-1-24 21:28
師兄，有好的CDT推薦嗎？     
好嘅CDT應該唔多，太高級嘅小弟又冇本事！     
小弟已 ...

舊款dCS和MSB，已可和最新頂級CAS一分高下。他們現在也不是天價，聽咗先下決定。

vhs

Sa683s 發表於 2019-1-24 23:43
舊款dCS和MSB，已可和最新頂級CAS一分高下。他們現在也不是天價，聽咗先下決定。 ...

對呀.....

greenleo

pageup 發表於 2019-1-24 22:46
小弟讀書時， Department of Computer Science 係叫做電子計算機學糸。而家就叫計算機學系。
CDP，CDT，DAC ...

完全同意CDP, CDT,FAS 都只是CAS 的某一種instance，對CAS 的發展非常樂觀。

pageup

FAS 代表咩？

charliey

File as source ?

tleonard

就算 CDT 點勁都好，某程度上嚟講隻碟本身都可能會係個樽頸位。無論發燒碟嘅宣傳谷到幾盡都好，平均每一隻碟嘅成本都唔可以太高，否則就要賣到好貴先至有偈傾。

於是乎每一隻壓出嚟嘅『平民化』碟都可以話係輸在起跑線，質素方面點都比唔上玻璃 CD 或者燒出嚟嘅 Green Tune CD-R，一分錢一分貨：

http://www.greentunecd.com/gtpurchase.html
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/crystal-disc-us-1600-was-played-with-genesis-speaker.11773/page-16#post-219732

日本 Memory-Tech 仲有紫銀合金 AQCD 同埋特殊合金 UHQCD：

https://www.elusivedisc.com/UHQCD-explained.pdf
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ultimate-hqcd-uhqcd-new-cd-format-king-crimson-on-uhqcd-and-more.576237/

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上個禮拜試過比較 SATA 介面嘅 Pioneer BDR-S11J-X 同埋 USB 介面嘅 Dela D10，後者用咗條 Vertere Pulse-HB USB 居然 rip 完之後嘅全部檔案都播唔到，而且 dBpoweramp 嘅 AccurateRip 功能亦都報錯，反而普通嘅 USB 3.0 線就 OK。

Pioneer 同埋 Dela 兩者嘅避震功夫都一樣係非等閒之輩，不過結果都係聽得出些少分別，P 記會比較 raw，而 D 記就有點兒修飾，鹹魚青菜，各有所愛。

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另外 CD 仲有一個隱憂，一隻普通嘅碟唔知幾時會玩完，假如係比較冷門嘅碟亦都未必會有新版，不過就可以用 Green Tune CD-R 加埋 Plextor Premium 2 嘅 AMQR 整一個 backup：

http://blog.svilen.com/2012/10/best-cd-audio-recorder-yamaha-crw-f1crw.html

greenleo

tleonard 發表於 2019-1-25 06:57
就算 CDT 點勁都好，某程度上嚟講隻碟本身都可能會係個樽頸位。無論發燒碟嘅宣傳谷到幾盡都好，平均每一隻 ...

Leonard 兄講出了Physical media 的死穴，raw materials 的成本影響了音質。這個死穴也在Analogue source system 發生，而且更加影響了耐用度。

我覺得今天的CAS就好像80年代初出度的CDP，是發展中，離開成熟有一大段的距離。但是對母檔案可以永遠無損地複制這個至重要的特色，就已經把CD as source 的系統比下去。若是Rip 碟不需要專家的技巧和專業的器材(拜讀過史的墳兄rip 碟的鴻文，對墳兄敬佩不矣！)，則只要把CAT (computer as transport)做好，結合現存的DAC，已經可以出到極佳的聲音。

看現在的趨勢，可能CAS  也快將式微，變成一些如高價CDP的產品(看CX, DX, EX 這些server 的價錢，Statement 的售價！)，也許NAT(Network as Transport)已經靜悄悄地來臨，低質的藍牙傳輸，spotify，Tidal 及至令不少燒友雀躍的Quboz，正在掀起顛覆性的音響革命呢！

greenleo

jackt 發表於 2019-1-24 21:28
師兄，有好的CDT推薦嗎？     
好嘅CDT應該唔多，太高級嘅小弟又冇本事！     
小弟已 ...

忽然想起，tleonard 兄曾在Hiendy 發一標題為巨人殺手之類的帖。文中提及的系統也是用電腦output 至DAC 的，基本上和CDT 的原理並無二致，只是在檔案的儲存方式有所不同。師兄已經用CAS，看看文中的系統是否有用？價錢相信會比好的CDT 相宜得多了。

jackt

greenleo 發表於 2019-1-25 08:07
Leonard 兄講出了Physical media 的死穴，raw materials 的成本影響了音質。這個死穴也在Analogue source ...

時代在變，産品也在變，每個產物都有週期，但聽音樂是不變的。   

vhs

tleonard 發表於 2019-1-25 06:57
就算 CDT 點勁都好，某程度上嚟講隻碟本身都可能會係個樽頸位。無論發燒碟嘅宣傳谷到幾盡都好，平均每一隻 ...

"Pioneer 同埋 Dela 兩者嘅避震功夫都一樣係非等閒之輩，不過結果都係聽得出些少分別，P 記會比較 raw，而 D 記就有點兒修飾，鹹魚青菜，各有所愛。"

Thanks for your sharing.......

I am using Pioneer BDR-S11J-X and RATOC 外置盒 RP-EC5-U3AI.

I found out that SMPS and external LPS provided me with identical SQ of ripped files. However, if I use USB 2.0 port instead of USB 3.0, the sound is less "digital".

vhs

jackt 發表於 2019-1-25 10:45
時代在變，産品也在變，每個產物都有週期，但聽音樂是不變的。      ...

Exactly................

greenleo

vhs 發表於 2019-1-25 12:08
"Pioneer 同埋 Dela 兩者嘅避震功夫都一樣係非等閒之輩，不過結果都係聽得出些少分別，P 記會比較 raw， ...

這些rips:SMPS, LPS, USB2.0,USB3.0是bit by bit identical 的嗎？

vhs

greenleo 發表於 2019-1-25 12:37
這些rips:SMPS, LPS, USB2.0,USB3.0是bit by bit identical 的嗎？

Yes.......using same software....dbpoweramp...and so called bit perfect (but doesn't matter at all).....just a theory....need to try different settings in your current setup to find out the best sound.....


I believe the differences of SQ by USB 2.0 and 3.0 are related to the chipset and driver and the communication path of my current DIY Roon Core Server.

My next step is to try using Pachanko "Pure Reference" SATA cable to connect Pioneer BDR-S11J-X to the modded SATA card. I guess it will provide me with the best result as there is no "sata-to-usb conversion". But I need to try and test.

For CAS, need to trial and error by yourself to find out the best sound. Theory is just a starting point. Reading, reading and reading without implementation by yourself is just a joke. And, your DAC should be good enough to represent the differences when you change the settings during the course of trial and error.

greenleo

VHS 兄：
我理解你是用同一hw(drive) 和同一sw(dbpoweramp)，理應是一同一settings  rip 同一張CD。只是想確認rip 出來的檔案是否bitwise identical。

CAS 其中一個最大的迷思是為何不同的檔案但identical 的rip 在同一部CAS 在播放時有不同的SQ?我相信眾師兄的聽感是正確的，也就是確有分別。如果可以明白成因，或者解決到這個問題，是CAS 的一大突破，MPOV。

vhs

greenleo 發表於 2019-1-25 13:27
VHS 兄：
我理解你是用同一hw(drive) 和同一sw(dbpoweramp)，理應是一同一settings  rip 同一張CD。只是想 ...

"......如果可以明白成因..." difficult.

Even an audio grade SATA cable (connect hard drive to SATA chipset only) will make a huge difference. As long as you had tried as many different settings as possible within your budget and available resources to obtain the best sound (best sound to you doesn't mean best sound to other ppl), then enjoy music.  


The most important thing is to implement by yourself. Test by yourself. Hear by yourself. Do it by yourself. You listen to your Hifi system, not other ppl. Theory is just a starting point for your trial and error process in the field of CAS.     

greenleo

Hi VHS,

You don't get me.

"Even an audio grade SATA cable (connect hard drive to SATA chipset only) will make a huge difference". This is a fact and can be understood relatively clearly.  Different cables produce different sound is very much accepted.  It's exactly like different RCA produce different sound.

Using identical rips as sources output to the same hw is different from the quoted case.

Regards.

tleonard

又搵到 CD-R 同埋 CD 兩者之間嘅比較，相當似 Pioneer BDR-S11J-X 嘅 raw 同埋 Dela D10 嘅修飾：

http://www.highfidelity.pl/@numer--91&lang=en

CD-R offered more information and a more relaxed sound. CD sounded bluntly and more "clear", but because of it also a little more “raw”.

After a long time I can say, however, that the CD-R sounded better, more clearly, it is more interesting. CD seems to be "polished", and a lot of "fringe" information is gone that make up the atmosphere of the recording.

日本有師兄比較過幾隻 CD-R 嘅 C1 errors：

http://dvd-r.jpn.org/gt/index.html

三菱 Green Tune = 7440／6968
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/PXS/PX-760A_GREENTUNE_CDR4x.png
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/nero2/PX-760A_GREENTUNE_CDR4x.png

TDK = 210737／36346
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/PXS/PX-760A_TDK_THEORY_CDR4x.png
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/nero2/PX-760A_TDK_THEORY_CDR4x.png

三井 = 14795／13667
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/PXS/PX-760A_MITSUI_GOLD_CDR4x.png
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/nero2/PX-760A_MITSUI_GOLD_CDR4x.png

太陽誘電 = 838／948
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/PXS/PX-760A_Thats_Master_CDR4x.png
http://dvd-r.jpn.org/test2/nero2/PX-760A_Thats_Master_CDR4x.png

三位數 C1 errors 已經好勁，不過幾年前停產之後就炒到二千幾円一隻，淘寶都過百人仔，但係估唔到 National Library of Australia 用嘅特製三井 CD-R 居然係兩位數或以下：

https://books.google.com/books?id=je6sVmcRAqEC&pg=PA295
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Best-CDR-for-burning-a-Master-to-send-to-duplicators-m2247726.aspx

If you want to know how many errors we are actually talking about I cannot remember exactly. I could maybe call up some of my friends in there and get some figures again. I think 200 to 400 might be typical for a standard music CD but they were aiming for like 5 or 10 on the whole CD!

仲有一樣麻煩嘢就係隻碟本身已經有 jitter，要靠專用嘅硬件／軟件測量：

http://www.electro-meters.com/yokogawa/yokogawa-bench-calibrators/obsolete-products/ta120/
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/131433-best-cd-burners-error-checking-software.html

Plextools is intended to produce full disc reports that include disc layout, error rates and jitter information.

十幾年前 Stereophile 都有提過，第三頁嘅其中幾段都頗為有趣：

https://www.stereophile.com/content/cd-jitter-errors-magic-page-3

Moreover, JVC's K-2 Interface seems to improve sound quality without changing the pattern of ones and zeros in the digital code.

Many engineers, including those at JVC who designed the K-2 Interface and digital designers at Madrigal Audio Laboratories, maintain that jitter can still reach the DAC, despite the buffering.

It is probably no coincidence that JVC's K-2 interface and high-quality CD transports—both of which reduce jitter—improve soundstage depth and low-level resolution, contributing to a sense of spaciousness.

所以每一隻 CD 本身嘅質素都可以有一定距離，放得越耐就越唔掂，抄過去另一隻 CD-R 都唔係話唔得嘅，但係買咁多靚嘅吉碟就會非常重皮咁解。

vhs

tleonard 發表於 2019-1-26 17:20
又搵到 CD-R 同埋 CD 兩者之間嘅比較，相當似 Pioneer BDR-S11J-X 嘅 raw 同埋 Dela D10 嘅修飾：

http:// ...

Very good info

vhs

tleonard 發表於 2019-1-26 17:20
又搵到 CD-R 同埋 CD 兩者之間嘅比較，相當似 Pioneer BDR-S11J-X 嘅 raw 同埋 Dela D10 嘅修飾：

http:// ...

剛再指細看過一次，對於我是新知識呀。