NAS Streaming可以比CD靚聲嗎？CH Precision C1來告訴你

charleslinnfans

NAS connected to streamer reduce possible of computer noise and USB cable dependency.

里克1

以jitter處理的角度，ethernet streaming可能有天生的優勢.....？

Audiophilelp

charleslinnfans 發表於 2014-7-26 09:56
NAS connected to streamer reduce possible of computer noise and USB cable dependency.

NAS itself is a computer which also requires power supply and generates noises. Besides, you need LAN cable and a switch / router, they all are subject to noises or other interferences as well. All connection modes/ data transfer routes have their limitations but is it reasonable to expect the shortest route with the least junctions to minimize possible pollutions?

diamondblack

Audiophilelp 發表於 2014-7-26 10:59
NAS itself is a computer which also requires power supply and generates noises. Besides, you need  ...

again it's impossible to compare these interfaces in isolation as there are so many variables, the cable, the controller chip, pcb layout, pcb build, in-built filtering etc. but one aspect that an ordinary ethernet cable is better than usb cable is because of the power pin/line inside the usb cable. this is solely for electricity transmission but the relatively large current flow will generate more interferences.

I haven't tested myself but a trusted friend told me when he disabled the power pin/cable, he could hear improvement in the playback quality and the change is not insignificant.

karsonkwan

呢隻Switch好普通。最好係唔經Switch直駁NAS

Audiophilelp

diamondblack 發表於 2014-7-26 11:52
again it's impossible to compare these interfaces in isolation as there are so many variables, the ...

Thanks for sharing!

Both interfaces are not designed solely for hifi purposes and yet we are waiting for a gold standard in file / digital playback protocol.

For USB, that's why a USB filter box and isolation design can improve sound.

Some DACs including C1 has such isolation from noises in USB.

Of course I witnessed the network streaming card is also excellent!

k500a

Ustortoise 發表於 2014-7-25 12:03
小弟新手想請教…

剔除CAS方便程度唔講，以CD黎講，CAS可以優勝於CD的因素是什麼? 我假設CD ripping 最終 ...

Ustortoise 兄，
您的問題很有趣。我也分享一下我的看法。
我相信您的意思是CDT (CD Transport) 到 DAC的傳送已經相當成熟，那麽CAS又有甚麼優勢呢？

換個角度看，CDT 其實已經發展到瓶頸位置，改善空間是相當有限的。

相較 CDT ， CAS 有着以下優勢：
1) 信源
CDT 的信源是 CD 和 SACD ，再高解像度的DSD128 和 DXD 已無法在CDT 上播放。而CAS上大部分的Player都對這兩樣格式甚至更高取樣的格式支援。

2) 靈活性和可調性。
CDT 的 up-sampling/PCM-DSD/DSD-PCM 的 Algorithm 選擇 有限。而CAS 可以有很多選擇 (HQPlayer ) ，也可以把DSD 轉換成PCM，反之亦然。對於只提供PCM或DSD的解碼噐，CAS提供了使用上的靈活性。
再加上CAS有可以使用convolution engine 的player，Room tuning 可以輕易實踐了。

3) 新的介面
CAS 提供了新的傳輸介面，Asynchronous USB 和 Asynchronous ethernet streaming。
如果執行正確(galvanic isolation, buffer management , high precision clock , seperate power supply to USB,...) 這些介面是可以大大感低jitter的影響。

Aurender 的確是提供了一個turn key solution。只要留意與DAC的相容性，那麼即買即用的確是其優勢。
對於精益求精，又或者是喜歡調配自己喜歡的聲音人來說另一條路會是更好玩。

JackieEason

k500a 發表於 2014-7-26 14:56
Ustortoise 兄，
您的問題很有趣。我也分享一下我的看法。
我相信您的意思是CDT (CD Transport) 到 DAC的 ...

小弟最近一直思索，CDT到DAC，两頭clock不一致，始终差啖氣。word clock不及master-slave clock。如用CDP則無此問題，因爲全部都於機内IIS搞掂。CAS多玩分體，現時市面分體就Esoteric P-1/D-1四件頭。要平宜好似未有solution。

Audiophilelp

Would you add a CH X1 PSU to your C1, Nickif ?

Ustortoise

k500a 發表於 2014-7-26 14:56
Ustortoise 兄，
您的問題很有趣。我也分享一下我的看法。
我相信您的意思是CDT (CD Transport) 到 DAC的 ...

K500a兄：

U actually addressed my question precisely.  This is exactly what I'm indeed trying to say - the ultimate goal of CAS should be super high resolution and high quality could be "manageable/obtainable" by common audiophile by simplifying the playback chain.

Speaking CD playback merely, I don't see any convincing reasons that CAS could outperform traditional CDT (or by any meaningful margin). On a separate note, in CAS, u r extending the  playback chain longer and longer, which also exposing yourself into a contradicting situation. In a way, u can say that it provides sound tweaking opportunities but, I personally feel that, it also leads u into an abyss of unlimited variables.  When there are so many variables in one equation, it's hard to repeat the "success" scientifically (but it's also the fun part of hifi, isn't it?).

diamondblack

Ustortoise 發表於 2014-7-26 21:28
K500a兄：

U actually addressed my question precisely.  This is exactly what I'm indeed trying to  ...

Looking back to the Hifi history, actually audiophiles have been making the playback chain more complicated to try attaining the pinnacle, say DCS' 4-box SACD playback solution.

CAS is just at its dawn. At the user end, who are actually keep asking for more playback quality, has discovered using non-hifi but yet simple and available technologies to get through hurdles, the so-called optical LAN is a very good example. It is up to the industry participants to wake up and realize the promise of CAS and seriously design and deliver products which can realize the potential in full.

I am typing this using an iPad. Don't forget what our computers looked like not long ago.

k500a

Ustortoise 兄,
I thought  my post (170#) pt 2) and 3) has tried to propose the reason why the CAS playback better than the CDT. Let me explain it further:
If you like the up-sampling concept in CD playback , the CAS provides multiple ways for up sampling that would address your system and preference . It can't be provided by the CDT.

The new interface (async usb/async ethernet streaming) , in theory, can be completely eliminated the jitter. The CAS adopted this kind interface can perform better than the CDT in good implementation.
With reference to the article  “USB versus SPDIF” in The Well-Tempered Computer
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/USB_SPDIF.htm

Can a single PC do a good job in the CAS ?
I've attended the super high end show 2014, the CD play back was great.
What they used is  a  single pc with passive cooling but it has been equipped with tailored power supply , mixed cd/harddisk damping material , separate usb power, grounding filter,...

In CDT playback era, we would tried to tweak CDT with power cable, platform, damping material, .. , In CAS playback era, we tweak CAS with LPS, usb-fiber converter, LAN-fiber converter, OS and playback software. They are similar.

In the hifi journey, every single component can have a lot of parameters that would affect the sound. The CAS is relative new to us so we don't have some good reference we can imitated. That's why we might sometime get lost .

Therefore, we need to have some good music for reference to help us to find a way out from the maze.

Ustortoise

k500a 發表於 2014-7-27 10:06
Ustortoise 兄,
I thought  my post (170#) pt 2) and 3) has tried to propose the reason why the CAS pl ...

k500a 兄：

What u said indeed make perfect sense to me. I don't against CAS at all while i still have a bunch of CAS gears sitting at home.  If possible, i would rather focus on those comparative edges of CAS as u mentioned.  As a newbie, I hope one day even common audiophiles could reproduce good sound with some logical and clear directive steps (not like any random 大師 BS blablablaaa..).

Thanks for all 師兄responses, 小弟受教了.

Quick question - the purpose of LAN/optical conversion is to filter out noises from upstream. If so, can we skip those LPS for switch, NAS etc and focus on the power supply of the LAN/optical converter?

diamondblack

Ustortoise 發表於 2014-7-27 11:07
Quick question - the purpose of LAN/optical conversion is to filter out noises from upstream. If so, can we skip those LPS for switch, NAS etc and focus on the power supply of the LAN/optical converter?

I don't know why but a big "NO" is my answer. If you have limited space to house everything, having the optical-Ethernet converter, especially the one connecting to the DAC/streamer, treated, will give you the biggest bang for the money.

k500a

Ustortoise 發表於 2014-7-27 11:07
k500a 兄：

What u said indeed make perfect sense to me. I don't against CAS at all while i still  ...

Ustortoise 兄，
As I said the Trinity PC did a good job in demonstrating how  a single pc can do, we can borrow the idea from their design.
In whatsbestorum, a guy post his dialog with the Trinity PC designer,
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/sh ... ewfull=1#post276600
It is as below:
"I use in my mediaPC a top of the etch Swiss SMPS, followed by an passive filter, followed by an extreme low drop, low nose 7.5A voltage regulator and additional capacitors afterwards.

The power supply for the HDD comes direct from this board and not from the motherboard and the DAC USB interfaces get an additional low noise 5V voltage regulator.

That means only the differential data lines of the USB interface are connected to the motherboard.

The HDD and the optical drive are placed on vibration-cushioned suspensions, whereby I use different material for HDD and optical drive, since they rotation speed and therefor the vibration frequencies are different."
=================================
.
To priorities the thing to work out, I'd start from the connection to DAC, then pc, then network, then NAS.
.
The first thing to do is to separate the USB power data line  (adanco usb/optical converter) and use SSD instead of HDD.  
Then apply separate LPS to the USB and the PC main board. Then apply the LPS to the Lan-fiber converter.
.
When less SWPS use , the less polluted power source would be.  It would be welcome at any time in audio playback. Therefore, I'd agree to replace the SWPS for the NAS, and router after fixing the components nearest the dac.

Ustortoise

diamondblack 發表於 2014-7-27 11:10
I don't know why but a big "NO" is my answer. If you have limited space to house everything, havin ...

This is an interesting but contradicting answer.

If LPS at upstream will further improve sound quality with the use of optical converter near DAC, I guess it deserves further examination what actually contributing to good sound. Are we missing something in the puzzle? I'm not trying to argue but wishing to find out what is happening in our chain of playback (I also have few LPS and optical converter in my setup).  If we can resolve this, maybe we can apply this good factor to other area?

Bubble

Ustortoise 發表於 2014-7-27 14:35
This is an interesting but contradicting answer.

If LPS at upstream will further improve sound q ...

我覺得喱句好有意思：

'I'm not trying to argue but wishing to find out what is happening in our chain of.....'

因為好多時候提出相反意見是好事來，大多數只係想討論清楚件事情，未必全心野起爭吵。

就是各巴打擁有這個氣度才可令個CAS討論去到9版，並且內容愈來愈深入。

nickif

Ustortoise 發表於 2014-7-27 14:35
This is an interesting but contradicting answer.

If LPS at upstream will further improve sound q ...

My view is the limit of a system is always determined by the weakest link of the chain.

For example, if you have 100k budget for cables, would you buy a full set of cardas clear (or something else at same level) or a pair of siltech empress speaker cables as it is the last component off the chain?

diamondblack

Ustortoise 發表於 2014-7-27 14:35
This is an interesting but contradicting answer.

If LPS at upstream will further improve sound quality with the use of optical converter near DAC, I guess it deserves further examination what actually contributing to good sound. Are we missing something in the puzzle? I'm not trying to argue but wishing to find out what is happening in our chain of playback (I also have few LPS and optical converter in my setup).  If we can resolve this, maybe we can apply this good factor to other area?

Yes. I understand the contradiction, and I share your frustration.

This is my observation over the last 18 months during which I made countless changes to my network streaming setup from different router and switch configuration to vibration control for the NAS. I am not able to offer you a scientific explanation over the phenomenon. What I can share with you is, changes at the source end of the Optical-Ethernet conversion can be heard at the player end of the chain every time. That said, the Optical-Ethernet conversion is a highly effective mean, if not the most significant one, to lower the noise level of the signal path.

I think there's no universal solution but I believe the basic principles for producing good sound in analog playback are by large applicable, i.e. clean power and good vibration control. On top of these, reliability and speed of your disc system.

mahi

My experience is similar, after optical isolation is in place, I can still hear distinctively the difference in sound of two generic type cat cables, and that of two lps I use to feed a switch further upstream.

The closest analogy I can think of is like analogue cables, the sound you hear is a combination of its conductor and noise level. You can have vastly different sound from two pairs of cables if conductors are not the same, even though the rest of it like the structure, geometry, shielding, etc is the same.